Dearest:    Tonight's guests are AARON TABOR, M.D., Medical Director of Physicians 
Laboratories, Developers of the #1 doctor-recommended Revival Soy Protein.

Our other guest is MARY SHOMON, Author of "Living Well With Hypothyroidism: What 
Your Doctor Doesn't Tell You . . . That You Need to Know"

Good evening, Dr.Tabor and Mary Shomon. Welcome to Power Surge :) Would you each
please introduce yourselves by telling us a bit about your research into SOY and THYROID 
issues. Thank you.


Dr. Aaron Tabor:   Thank you, Dearest.  Greetings to everyone.  My interest in 
hypothyroidism started about 6 years ago when my grandmother was diagnosed with the 
condition.  She had a very atypical presentation.  In fact, no one even suspected that it 
was hypothyroidism.  Her symptoms were sporadic leg and arm tremors that were 
uncontrollable.  It wasn't until she was seen at Johns Hopkins Hospital by the Neurology 
department that the experts there realized what was going on.  I was shocked to learn of her 
diagnosis of hypothyroidism.  Within several weeks of starting Synthroid, she was back to a 
"normal" 78 year old.  The most important thing I learned from those doctors was that about 
10 to 15 million women in the US may suffer with undiagnosed hypothyroidism.  I would love 
to here Mary's thoughts on this as well. 


Dearest:    Thank you, Dr. Tabor. Mary, could you share something about yourself
and your experience with thyroid and soy. Thanks. 


Mary Shomon:   I'm Mary Shomon, a thyroid patient for five years, a writer, mother of a 2 
1/2 yr old, and author of Living Well With Hypothyroidism: What Your Doctor Doesn't Tell 
You...That You Need to Know.

I'm webmaster of several thyroid sites, http://thyroid.about.com, and www.thyroid-info.com.
I also edit a 25,000 subscriber newsletter offering conventional and alternative thyroid 
patient newsletter, "Sticking Out Our Necks."

My focus is on thyroid problems, the causes and factors that increase our risk, the 
difficulties even getting diagnosed for many women, esp. of menopausal age, and the 
difficulty getting the right treatments.

Many in the conventional medical establishment believe that hypothyroidism is something 
"easily treated with one little pill," but that's not the case, so I'm trying to put 
information in the hands of the patients who need it.

So I welcome this opportunity to help get the word out about thyroid problems, and have a 
chance to visit with you all tonight! Thanks for inviting me, and greeting, Dr. T!  Nice to 
meet you online! 


Dearest:    Thank you for that intro, Mary. I hope that everyone knows that in Power Surge 
the bottom line is that we're all here to learn! We want all the facts each of you have on 
any benefits and/or drawbacks to the use of soy isoflavones and we can only find out from 
the experts who've been invovled in the day to day research and experience with patients.


Dr. Aaron Tabor:   We get many questions about thyroid health, and your work is of great 
value to many women! 


Dearest:    That's why you're both here. To answer our questions. ChiChi, go ahead.


ChiChi:   Dr Tabor, how many milligrams of isoflavones are in your product and what tests have 
been done to determine their effect on thyroid function, especially in menopausal women?


Dr. Aaron Tabor:   Each serving of Revival contains about 150 to 160 milligrams of 
isoflavones.  This level has recently been determined by a concensus conference of 9 of the 
world's reknown soy researchers (based on cumulative studies published) in April of 2000 to 
be in the range "for health benefits".  Numerous studies have established soy isoflavone 
intake in the Asian populations to be in this range as well.  I want to make a VERY 
important distinction between the isoflavones in Revival and the isoflavones found in soy 
pills.  Soy pills contain chemically-extracted isoflavones that behave VERY, VERY different 
in the body than isoflavones do from non-chemically processed soy protein like Revival.  We 
do not recommend the use of soy pills because they have little safety data and studies show 
that they are only about 50% as effective as soy isoflavones and soy protein taken together, 
particularly in the areas of menopause relief and heart health.  We have looked at a group 
of 20,000 Revival users and no data from that indicates that use of Revival increases risk 
of thyroid dysfunction.  I'll break there and let others come in. 


Dearest:    Thank you, Dr.Tabor. Mary, go ahead with your comments, please.


Mary Shomon:   I would have concerns with this level of isoflavones for anyone who is 
hypothyroid, or at ANY risk at all of having autoimmune hypothyroidism (and that's as many 
as 1 in 5 women by the age of 60).

Some studies have found that for adults, just 30 mg of soy isoflavones per day can have a 
negative impact on thyroid function.  There are also studies that indicate that the average 
Japanese diet does not include as high a level of soy foods as found in Dr. Tabor's product. 
Some studies have shown that the average consumption of soy foods in Japan and China is 
typically several servings, not exceeding 10 grams per day. Asians consume soy foods in 
small amounts as a condiment, and not as a replacement for animal foods.  

Daniel Doerge and Daniel Sheehan, two of the Food and Drug Administration's (FDA) key 
experts on soy, have publically expressed their serious concerns that the FDA has rushed the 
approval of health claims for soy. They've gone public with their serious concerns. They've 
written, and I quote here: "there is abundant evidence that some of the isoflavones found in 
soy demonstrate toxicity in estrogen sensitive tissues and in the thyroid.

They have said, "Isoflavones are inhibitors of the thyroid peroxidase which makes T3 and T4. 
Inhibition can be expected to generate thyroid abnormalities, including goiter and 
autoimmune thyroiditis. There are significant reports of goitrogenic effects from soy 
consumption in human infants and adults."

Basically, I think consumption of soy foods, as part of the diet, in a way similar to the 
Asian diet, and that means with iodine-rich foods as well, is probably safe for most, but 
concentrated supplements, and pills and powders may be problematic for some, but certainly 
not all.


Dearest:    Dr. Tabor, do you have a rebuttal? Mary, thank you for that information. 


Dr. Aaron Tabor:   Yes, the study that Mary references is often mis-quoted.  I want to 
remind everyone that the arguments from the FDA scientists who published that study were 
rejected by the FDA committee who approved the October 26, 1999 heart health claim (that soy 
protein lowers your risk of heart disease).  That study used chemically-purified isoflavones 
- this means that chemicals were used to extract out pure isoflavones - the soy protein, 
lignans, saponins, etc. were all left behind.  The chemically-purified isoflavones were then 
used in lab culture dish studies.  It is silly to extrapolate those findings to human 
consumption of whole soy products.  

How many of you here eat potatoes?  (Please type "I do" quickly)


MaryO:   I do
GRACE:   I do
reelpam:   I do
Dearest:    I do
Allie:  I do
cal:   I do
sarahv: I do
Sandy:   I do
Betty   I do
Barb:  I do
francoise:  I do
Guest16:  I do
Kelly:   I do
Denise:  I do
jdcislander:  I do
cal:   I do
Moonrise: I do
rhonda:  I do
Patti:  I do
Brulau:   I do


Dr. Aaron Tabor:   Studies using purified chemicals from potatoes KILL HUMAN BRAIN CELLS 
in the same lab studies.  Does this mean we should stop eating potatoes?? Of course, NOT!! 
That's why the FDA rejected those claims.  In fact, no "STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANT" study 
has ever shown that soy harms the average women or man.  More on this later.  I'll break there. 


Dearest:    Dr. Tabor, has the FDA made any claims about soy and thyroid disease? Also, To 
get away from studies for one moment, if thyroid issues are more likely to show up among 
women using high doses of soy isoflavones, why isn't there a high incidence of thyroid 
disease among Asian cultures who use soy as a staple in their diets? 


Mary Shomon:   There is a higher incidence of both Hashimoto's thyroiditis and thyroid 
cancer in the Japanese, vs. Americans. 


Dr. Aaron Tabor:   Infant formula from being used, or stopped soy foods from being sold and 
The FDA has not made any claims against soy and thyroid disease.  In fact, a study this 
summer showed that the Japanese enjoy the longest lifespan and quality of life during that 
long life span.  The Japanese have the lowest rates of breast cancer, in the highest areas 
of soy consumption. The biggest causes of mortality and morbity in this country are heart 
disease and cancer. The best data on soy protein shows it can help protect your health in 
these vital areas.  Although no statistically significant research has ever shown that soy 
harms the thyroid in healthy adults on a healthy diet, shouldn't we be more concerned about 
spreading the good news that soy protein may actually lower your risk of the most feared 
disease - breast cancer? 


Dearest:    Mary, does research indicate that the alleged higher rates of thyroid disease among 
Asian women are due specifically to their soy consumption? 


Mary Shomon:   The higher levels of thyroid problems may be due to a variety of factors, soy 
included. I'm not arguing that soy can be of help to some people and for some health issues, 
including cancers and cholesterol levels. However, overconsumption of soy isoflavones is a 
concern for potential or current thyroid patients.

There are a number of significant research studies, not funded by any soy product 
manufacturers or interests, that present these findings. These are the studies pointed to by 
the FDA's scientists, Drs. Doerge and Sheehan.

My perspective is that I feel more confident in the findings of these two FDA scientists 
who'd devoted years of extensive study to the soy issue, and who risked their jobs and 
pensions to speak out because of their concerns for public health. They have nothing to 
gain, financially, by speaking the truth about what they have found about soy 
overconsumption, and their scientific concerns about isoflavones.  A link to their full text 
of their letter -- which caused quite a stir among the soy industry -- can be found on 
http://www.thyroid-info.com/soy.

Again, I think moderate consumption of soy products is a good idea -- but overconsumption 
can be problematic for people who are hypothyroid due to autoimmune hypothyroidism, or who 
are at risk of developing it.


Dearest:    Patti, go ahead, please.


Patti:   What alternatives can be used to help the thyroid?


Dearest:    Mary, would you like to answer that?


Mary Shomon:   There are many ways you can help the thyroid. Of course, if you are 
hypothyroid, you first want to really focus on making sure you get a proper diagnosis from 
your doctor.


Patti:   I have three Dr's two say its borderline one doesn't know what to do.


Mary Shomon:   Then you want to make sure you're getting the right thyroid drug, whether 
that's levothyroxine, like synthroid, or natural thyroid, etc.


Patti:   in the meantime I have symptoms of hyprthyroisdism and don't know what to do, 
Thanks


Mary Shomon:   Then, vitamins -- B vitamins are important -- minerals like calcium, 
selenium, magnesium, a proper diet, exercise...all these are critical to getting in balance.  
Many doctors disagree over whether to treat borderline hypothyroidism. A TSH level in the 4-
6 range is considered "borderline." Some doctors will treat that level autoimatically, 
others only if you have symptoms, and some doctors will refuse to treat unless TSH goes even 
higher, i.e., over 10.  If you have symptoms, and a borderline TSH and your doctor refuses 
to try you on a small course of thyroid hormone, you may want to et a second opinion from a 
doctor who is experienced in dealing with subclinical hypothyroidism. That seems to really 
help some people!


Dearest:    I'm waiting for Dr.Tabor to return. Mary, will you return to do an exclusive 
"thyroid" chat in Power Surge?


Mary Shomon:   Absolutely, Dearest. I'd love to! Anytime!


Dearest:    That's great. We'll schedule it via E.mail :)  I do hope Dr. Tabor is able to 
return.  Let me ask you this until he returns, Mary. You are not suggesting that all women 
will develop thryoid issues from using soy, correct?  Even soy isoflavones in large amounts.


Mary Shomon:   No, Dearest, not at all.  About 20% of the population has a genetic 
propensity for autoimmune disease development that we carry around. A variety of triggers 
can "turn that on" and actually activate a disease process in some people that might be 
environmental exposures, foods, allergies, viral exposure, etc.  The experts I've studied 
believe that overconsumption (not a normal food-based diet, i.e., the Asian diet) of soy 
isoflavones can "turn on" that automimune process for thyroid disorders...because the 
genistein,  a component of the isoflavone, acts as an antithyroid agent.


Dearest:    So, you are saying that if a woman has a propensity for thyroid problems, the 
large doses of isoflavones can possibly cause thyroid disease?

Dr. Tabor, could you comment on Mary's remarks about Genistein as an anti-thyroid agent? 


Mary Shomon:   So, Dearest, yes, if a woman has already existing autoimmune thyroid 
problems, or a propensity to develop them, the soy can (not will) potentially trigger the 
autoimmune process. 


Dearest:    Mary, I also believe that everything in life is a trade-off. I lowered my 
cholesterol by over 100 points using Revival soy. I got rid of hot flashes, depression, 
fatigue and vaginal drynss using Revival the past two years, my thyroid tests have been 
normal. I don't have any concerns about the large doses of soy isoflaovones I'm using 
because I know I'm using a quality product endorsed by and used in research at the
country's leading hospitals and scientific/research institutions and not a soy product
hyped by some health food store and manufactured by chemically altering the soybean.
Revival uses non-gentically engineered soybeans. Your thoughts? 


Mary Shomon:   I think that's terrific that you're doing well. I just want people to realize 
that if they start on something like Revival, or on high-dose isoflavone supplements, for 
example, and develop ANY symptoms of hypothyroidism -- fatigue, weight gain, hair loss, 
depression, muscle/joint pains, feeling cold -- then they should request thyroid testing 
right away, adn reconsider the overconsumption of soy.


Dearest:    I can't disagree with that. Any signs such as the ones you mention should be 
examined immediately, soy or not. Do you know what modality of isoflavone was used in the 
studies you cite?


Mary Shomon:   And people already on thyroid supplementation may find it harder to regulate 
their TSH levels when taking a product like Revival, or high-dose isoflavone supplements. 
Many doctors are reporting this to me recently, a difficulty titrating doses for their 
patients untl they cut back on soy.


Dearest:    Dr. Tabor, your comments?


Dr. Aaron Tabor:   We looked at 20,000 Revival patients and they had no more incident of 
hypothyroidism than baseline levels.  Remember that over 10 million women in America have 
undiagnosed hypothyroidism.  We disagree strongly that our levels are too high.  A recent 
study in Taiwan found that the CHILDREN consume about 40 milligrams of isoflavones per day.  
Again, no study, ever, has shown that soy protein harms thyroid function in adults.  The 
overwhelmingly majority of studies show that soy protein will likely increase your lifespan.  
Of course, you should be having your thyroid levels checked at your yearly physical exam.  
Again, the world's premier experts on soy protein, much more qualified than the 2 FDA 
scientists referenced, recommended 100 to 160 mg per day for optimal health benefits!  
Another study in April showed that soy protein, in "high" doses did not alter thyroid 
levels.  

Mary is basing all of her statements on PURIFIED CHEMICAL STUDIES.  These are irrelevant 
to human consumption of soy protein.  The prestigious journal, Obstetrics & Gynecology, in 
Jan 1998, cites an intake level of 150 to 200 milligrams per day.  You can't extrapolate 
purified-chemical studies to normal human consumption.


Dearest:    Mary, go ahead with your rebuttal/comments and then let's go to the queue.


Mary Shomon:   I have to say that I'm a bit concerned with research from the world's premier 
soy experts, given that a large percentage of this research happens to be soy-industry 
funded. Most of the experts have a financial stake in the sale of soy products. Again, the 
FDA scientists, the scientists the government designated the best minds in soy research 
until they disagreed -- cite the various studies about the negative thyroid impact of 
isoflavones in their protest letter to the FDA over the soy issue. Even one of the most 
vocal pro-soy advocates, Clare M. Hasler, Ph.D., who is the spokesperson for the Strat-Soy 
program, has publically expressed concerns about the high levels of soy in Revival.  She 
wrote at the StratSoy board, "My issue with their literature is the statement that, "We 
recommend at least 150 mg of total plant estrogens per day...to ensure real health 
benefits." They base this on the intake of phytoestrogens from the traditional Asian 
(Japanese) diet.  This is approximately the amount of total isoflavones one would get from 
consuming 1/2 cup of roasted soybeans. However, no one has yet established the amount of 
isoflavones which are optimal for various health benefits as this area of research is so 
new."

Actually, the studies from Japan that I saw were using soybeans, I believe, in quantities to 
deliver high levels of isoflavones.


Dearest:    Dr. Tabor, one quick comment about Mary's reply? 


Dr. Aaron Tabor:   Dearest, I need to paste this study in.


Dearest:    Go ahead, Dr.T.  I am riveted to the screen.


Dr. Aaron Tabor:   Mary references DR HASLER.  Dr. Hasler was part of this consensus 
committee that recommends 100 to 160 milligrams per day!  Mary, I don't mean to embarrass 
you, but you don't have the facts straight at all.  Here comes the study.

Appropriate Isoflavone Food Fortification Levels: Results of a Consensus Conference.J.J.B. 
Anderson, H. Adlercreutz, S. Barnes, M.R. Bennink, M.S. Kurzer, P. Murphy, K. Setchell, C.M. 
Weaver, and C.M. Hasler.  Univ. of No. Carolina, Helsinki, Ala.-Birmingham, Michigan St., 
Minnesota, Iowa St., Cincinnati, Purdue and Illinois.  Experimental Biology 2000, San Diego, 
CA  April 15-18, 2000.

Several leading isflavone researchers convened recently to establish appropriate isoflavone 
food fortification levels.  A consensus was achieved after reviewing human studies in the 
areas of menopause, osteoporosis, cardiovascular disease, and cancer.  For the relief of 
menopausal symptoms, an intake of 60 mg aglycones was proposed, but consumption of soy 
protein in conjunction with the isoflavones was not specifically recommended.  For 
improvement in bone mineral density, consumption of 60 to 100 mg aglycones per day, without 
any concomitant soy protein, was suggested.  The consensus panel determined that the minimal 
intake needed to reduce serum LDL-cholesterol is between 37 and 62 mg aglycones per day, 
depending on prior cholesterol status (normo- vs. hypercholesterolemia), in conjunction with 
approximately 25 g of soy protein.  The minimal intake for potentially reducing the risk of 
cancers of the breast, colon and prostate in humans was suggested to be between 50 and 110 
mg per day of aglycones.  No concomitant soy protein might augment activity of the 
isoflavones.  For health benefits, recommended aglycone intakes ranged from 60 to 100 mg per 
day (100 to 160 mg glycosides).  However, the panel recommended an isoflavone intake of 60 
mg of aglycones per day (100 mg glycosides) as a reasonable and responsible food 
fortification level.  The issue of whether soy protein needs to be consumed in conjunction 
with isoflavones to obtain optimal health benefits requires further experimental 
investigation.

Note the sentence near the end:  For health benefits, recommended aglycone intakes ranged 
from 60 to 100 mg per day (100 to 160 mg glycosides).For health benefits, recommended 
aglycone intakes ranged from 60 to 100 mg per day.  This "glycoside" level of 160 milligrams 
is just over what a typical serving of Revival contains.  

Mary, there are studies that show lower intake levels, but that is in more "westernized" 
parts of Asia, and incidentally, rates of cancers (breast, endometrial and prostate) are 
rising.  These researchers are academic researchers, including Dr. Hasler, that Mary quotes 
and have no other reason to recommend these levels other than for the scientific facts. 


Dearest:    Thank you for that information, Dr.Tabor. Mary, your rebuttal.  


Mary Shomon:   I'm not arguing about the positive benefits of soy. I believe soy can be very 
beneficial. I'm not anti-soy in any way. I love soy foods, by the way!  I Just had a huge 
bowl of miso soup  for dinner tonight. And my family survives on those Morningstar farms 
breakfast patties, and Boca Burgers!  And I'm sure Dr. Hasler has participated in research 
and publically recommended soy products in many places, she's a very vocal advocate. But I 
can provide a link Soy site regarding her concerns about Revival's marketing claims.  Again, 
the main concern is that people know the risks and benefits...and that this realy applies to 
those who are hypothyroid, or who are at risk of autoimmune hypothyroidism.


Dr. Aaron Tabor:   Mary, you are switching the subject.  You assert that your expert, Dr. 
Hasler, is against "high" levels, but that is not the facts.  I don't want this to be 
confrontational, but you don't have this study listed on your website and that really 
concerns me that you are presenting incorrect, incomplete information.  You did not know 
about this study.  I think you should study it and reevaluate your position if you are 
seeking the true facts.  I think you are doing a great service to help these millions of 
women with undiagnosed hypothyroidism figure out what is wrong, but the overwhelming 
majority of studies show that women benefit enormously, and quite frankly, by not having the 
correct, complete info, you are doing more harm than good by "scaring" women.
Did you have knowledge of this study?


Dearest:    Remember, everyone, that Power Surge was selected by Health Magazine as one of 
"The 25 Best sites for Women" after the American Medical Association's claims that too many 
health sites didn't provide accurate information. That's what we're doing here - trying to 
provide a forum for the best informaiton available.


Mary Shomon:   I'm just concerned about thyroid patients who may end up with difficult-to-
manage hypothyroidism, or people who have autoimmune tendencies developing full-fledged 
hypothyroidism without realizing that overconsumption of soy may be a culprit. And honestly, 
my concern here is that the product you are touting is one that you personally sell, and 
have a very material interest in promoting as having no negative side effects. 


Dr. Aaron Tabor:   It was presented in April 2000. Did you have knowledge of it?


Dearest:    I'm curious, but what are Dr. Hasler's comments about Revival's marketing claims?   
Dr. Tabor is not merely selling a product. He's a physician associated with Johns Hopkins, 
who USE Revival in their research.


Mary Shomon:   They are located at http://www.ag.uiuc.edu/~stratsoy/expert/askhealth.html 


Dr. Aaron Tabor:   Again, you are basing your assumptions on lab data that has never been 
shown in humans.

Dearest, one more comment, regardless of Dr. Hasler's opinions on any of our products (I 
have never spoken with her or seen any comments), the issue is the isoflavone level.  
According to this new consensus study, of which she was a integral part (9 doctors), the 
level in Revival, contrary to Mary's opinions, are not "high", and may actually provide 
optimal benefits.  I want that to be extremely clear to everyone. And, I hope that Mary will 
concede us that point because she cites Dr. Hasler as her expert reference.  Now, I don't 
doubt Mary's word and I am not implying she is not telling the truth, but it possible that 
Dr. Hasler changed her mind from previous statements that Mary is aware of (?).  This sounds 
like the most reasonable explanation. 


ChiChi:   For Dr Tabor: Knight's 1996 review of the clinical effects of phytoestrogens, 
Obstet and Gynecology and Murkies, 1998 Phytoestrogens-AUst. Fam. Physician clearly shows 
non-extracted isoflavones causing hypothryoidism at levels of 60mg and the cholesterol and 
heart effects require BOTH 25mg of protein AND 100 mg of isoflavones. Re your product...have 
you followed those 20,000?  Is your study published on the 20,000? I took 60mg of 
isoflavones and became hypthyroid by lab values after 7 days...I am a physician..so I am 
concerned about marketing claims for products regardless of who does the 
research..UCLA/USC?Hopkins is irrelevant. The studies from Hong Kong show increased breast 
cancer rate and the study from Japan shows brain atrophy from soy.


Dr. Aaron Tabor:   Several questions there to address:  No, those reviews did not clearly 
show that soy causes hypothyroidism. Remember, the FDA reviewed all of those claims for 18 
months and found they were NOT statistically significant (for those non-medical people here, 
that means the study results, positive or negative, could be due just to chance).  Your 
hypothyroidism could be caused by many factors:
For instance, your baseline diet could be a factor. 
Maybe you are not getting enough iodine from other sources in your diet.
Perhaps you have a genetic predisposition to lower than average thyroid function 
and your diet or environment pushed that function to its limits.
The possibilities are endless!  

We simply don't have proven medical evidence to say that soy protein harms thyroid function 
for the average women.


ChiChi:   Dr Tabor: The only factor modified was a supplement, and my thyroid levels 
returned to normal once I stoppped them. It was not diet nor environment.


Dr. Aaron Tabor:   We would have thousands of reports here to us from our own customers, 
but that is fortunately not the case.


ChiChi:   You have not answered whether or not your study is published in a medical journal.


Dearest:    ChiChi, we appreciate your input, but wouldn't it seem that if tests show 
increased breast cancer and brain atrophy, an institution such as Johns Hopkins wouldn't be 
using this product to treat women with breast cancer?


ChiChi:   Please, I'm from UCLA.  Don't give me the Hopkins pep talk -- really.


Dearest:    ChiChi, I wasn't confronting you. I was asking a perfectly logical question. 
Johns Hopkins IS considered to be the #1 research institute in the country. We're all 
simply trying to get the facts.


Mary Shomon:   I'm a bit puzzled here. It's a bit of a concern to me that only the research 
that shows negative thyroid effects of soy is somehow being labelled "not statistically 
significant?" And certainly, I can't imagine if there were negative reports coming from soy 
product customers that the companies and individuals who stand to profit from their sales 
would be making that information public.


Dr. Aaron Tabor:   There are millions taking soy pill supplments.  If you saw an effect in 7 
days wouldn't we see millions of women with new thyroid problems already?  Wouldn't the CDC 
be investigating outbreaks of hypothyroidism.


ChiChi:   I don't doubt Dr Tabor and his study...I would just like to read it in a medical 
journal.


Dearest: ChiChi, please observe protocol. When we have guests, we wait our turn in
the queue without interrupting constantly. Thank you.


Dr. Aaron Tabor:   Why hasn't hypothyroidism been reported as a side-effect in the hundreds 
of studies being done on soy in human patients right now?


ChiChi:   Again, Dr Tabor...where is your study published on the 20,000 you refer to in 
backing all your responses here?


Dr. Aaron Tabor:   I'm getting to that.  Can we resume protocol?  By the way, if anyone has 
additional questions, please email me at doctors@revivalsoy.com.  On to the other issues, we 
have multiple studies that will be published in the coming months, including data on soy and 
thyroid.  Here is another study.  This new study (April 2000) shows no harm:

SOY ISOFLAVONES DO NOT HAVE AN ANTI-THYROID EFFECT IN POSTMENOPAUSAL WOMEN 
OVER 64 YEARS OF AGE. B. Bruce. G. A. Spiller and L. Holloway.  Health Research and Studies 
Center, Los Altos, CA 94022 and Palo Alto V.A. Health Care System, Palo Alto, CA 94034.  
Experimental Biology 2000, San Diego, CA  April 15-18, 2000.

Studies in animals, in vitro, and infants using soy-based formulas have suggested a possible 
anti-thyroid effect of soy.  In a randomized, double blind, placebo-controlled study, we 
investigated the effect on thyroid function of a concentrate supplying 90 mg of soy 
isoflavones in 38 postmenopausal women, aged 64-83 years old, not on hormone replacement 
therapy (HRT).  Thyroid stimulating hormone (TSH), thyroxine (T4) and triiodothyronine (T3) 
were measured before supplementation (BS) and after 90 and 180 days. These results suggest 
that there appears to be no anti-thyroid effect of soy isoflavones over six months in 
postmenopausal women not on HRT.

Note this study makes reference to the lab study that Mary cites.  No one argues that, but 
the latest human data, including our own data, shows no harm.  I didn't find this study on 
Mary's web site, and I think here information is incomplete.


cal:  I am just waiting for my Revival kit. Should I get tested for thyroid? I would like to 
know what is mary using for menopause. Also I have always been suspected for thyroid 
problems but tests proof negative. Now I am a little worried about Revival and are there 
any other problems I should know about? Also, if Revival is discontinued will thyroid be ok 
or will it remain problem for life?    


Dearest:    Mary, Dr.Tabor, are you okay with continuing a little longer to answer the 
questions in the queue?


Dr. Aaron Tabor:   Yes.


Mary Shomon:   Absolutely, Dearest.


Dearest:    Thank you to both of you :)

Dr.Tabor, are you going to address Cal's questions?  I think she actually asked questions of 
each of you, including chiChi, but she first asked Dr.Tabor.


Dr. Aaron Tabor:   We recommend that everyone have a yearly physical and that would include 
testing your thyroid levels.  Again, you illustrate my point that Mary is scaring people 
away from the wonderful proven heart and menopause benefits of soy - benefits which the FDA 
has no problem for soy makers to claim.  


Mary Shomon:   Cal, I am not menopausal yet, but I use soy foods -- i.e., tofu, soy patties, 
boca burgers -- in moderation, and low-dose estadiol gel for a slightly lower than normal 
estrogen level.

I am not trying to scare anyone. And I certainly don't want to discourage anyone from 
incorporating more soy into their diet. It's just important that people realize that soy 
isoflavones in these high doses go beyond being nutrients and become drugs. And like any 
drug, there will be some benefits and some negative things.  I.e., some women take estrogen, 
and we know that can have some positive effects, and negatives. But knowing that some 
estrogen is good doesn't mean that concentrating six times the normal dose of estrogen would 
be better.


Dr. Aaron Tabor:   Mary, I would agree with you about soy isoflavone doses in PILLS, but the 
expert you cite agrees with myself and other research doctors that a level of 160
milligrams per day is not a high level. 


Dearest:    Just out of curiosity, what form of soy is used in prepared soy burgers, franks, 
etc.?  Dr.Tabor first?  Then Mary, please..


Dr. Aaron Tabor:   Typically, soy burgers have no isoflavone content, just soy protein.  A 
typical burger may contain less than 10 mg of isoflavones, and thus are not a good source of 
soy nutrition.  There real benefit is a replacement to meat products that are high in fat. 


Mary Shomon:   I'm afraid that question re: the soy patty components is out of my area of 
expertise. I eat them for low-fat protein, not as an isoflavone source.


Dearest:    Thank you both. Betty, go ahead, please.


Betty   Dr. Tabor, is it significant that the testing of women that you cited earlier 
excluded women under 64 years of age?


Dr. Aaron Tabor:   That study was just designed to look at post-menopausal women.  I do not 
know how/why they selected that group.  But, it is significant that it was done in older 
women who generally have weaker ystems due to age, and thus, if any negative effect were to 
be seen, it would be much more likely to show up in this group versus younger women 30-60 
years old who generally have stronger body defenses.


Brulau:   Mary I take thyroid supplements and soy daily - are my TSH results inaccurate?


Mary Shomon:   Brulau, when soy does affect the thyroid, it doesn't "mask" TSH levels.  Your 
TSH levels will reflect the effect -- if any -- that soy has on you. Also, anyone who wishes 
more info on thyroid, please do drop me a line, mshomon@thyroid-info.com


jdcislander:   Is it safe for breast cancer survivors to take soy on a day to day basis? 
This question is to Mary and Dr. Tabor.


Dr. Aaron Tabor:   That is a long question to address because there are many, many studies that 
deal with the issue.  We feel it is safe as long as you are under your doctor's care. Email 
me for a full reply (doctors@revivalsoy.com).  


Patti:   Dr. Tabor, what do you recommend to help boost a lazy thyroid especially since the 
Doctors I have seen are not interested in medically treating it because they say its 
borderline.  Also, I wanted to say that Revival has made the quality of my life better than 
it has been for the last 6 years (due to Fibromyalgia.)  Thank You for making such a 
wonderful product!


Dr. Aaron Tabor:   Patti, animal studies show that soy protein can actually boost your 
thyroid function. You can email me for the references to that if needed.  The best therapy 
though is to get under your doctor's regular care to closely monitor it.  It will likely 
become necessary for you to go on a small amount of medication at some point in the future, 
but current treatments under your doctor's care are very safe and effective. Glad to hear 
Revival has changed your life.  Testimonies from 154 patients can be obtained by emailing me 
(doctors@revivalsoy.com).


Dearest:    Thank you, Dr.Tabor. Mary, your reply?


Mary Shomon:   I belive that if you have thyroid symptoms, and a borderline TSH, you should 
probably seek a second opinion from a doctor versed in subclinical hypothyroidism diagnosis 
and treatment. Many people benefit from low-dose thyroid hormone replacement at borderline 
levels. 


rhonda:   Would Revival be considered as a replacement to my HRT (estrace 2mg).  I am 
concerned about the possible cancer risk of HRT and would like to try natural.  Besides, the 
estrace does not stop my hot flashes, fatigue, depression and other symptoms I am having, 
being post full-hyst at age 38. This is to Dr. Tabor.


Dr. Aaron Tabor:   Studies at Wake Forest show that the use of soy protein and HRT together 
produce the best heart health benefits.  We commonly recommend the use of the two together.  
If you are one of the millions of women who refuse HRT (85% of women) due to cancer fears or 
other concerns, doctors at Wake Forest have stated that soy may be the perfect alternative.  
In fact, studies there using the human equivalent of 148 milligrams per day (again, this is 
not a high level) show that this level can effectively protect the breast and endometrial 
tissue from proliferation caused by the HRT.  This is a phenomenal finding, and I ask all of 
you, including Mary, to help spread the good news about this study. These are academic 
doctors with no industry ties and I can email the study to you.  Just write me at doctors@revivalsoy.com. 


rhonda:   Thank you.


francoise:   Mary, it is recommanded that we be tested for thyroid function anyway so would 
not this put everyone's mind at ease?  


Mary Shomon:   The American Thyroid Association just came out and suggested thyroid testing 
for everyone at age 35. And every five years thereafter, more often if you have a thyroid 
problem diagnosed. So I am a big advocate of regular thyroid testing for everyone. 


Dearest:    Dr. Tabor, any closing comments?  Then Mary will offer hers.


Dr. Aaron Tabor:   Mary, I really think you are doing a great service.  I would love to chat 
more with you on this topic.  Just email me!!  We have not seen problems in over 20,000 
Revival customers.  My own mother, grandmother and sister-in-law use Revival daily (for over 
2 years).  If there were scientific evidence that soy protein caused harm, and not great 
benefit, I would never allow them to be on Revival.


Dearest:    Mary, your comments?


Mary Shomon:   I just wanted to say that I realize that your job, Dr. Tabor, is to market 
Revival, and my job is increasing thyroid disease awareness, but bottom line, it's clear 
that we both want women to feel well, live well, and enjoy good health. But women need to 
realize that soy is a very big business right now, and growing every day.

I have a concern that the marketing of soy products has become such a huge and highly 
profitable business that enthusiastic marketers rush to sell us on all the benefits, and 
there are many that are proven -- without adequate attention to the very real downsides. 
There are so many cases where we've rushed to embrace a new drug, supplement, or nutritional 
approach, and then experts later had to backtrack as they discovered that there were 
downsides.

So, I guess my advice to women is be aware of the potential for thyroid problems if you have 
any susceptibiliy, but don't let that scare you away from intelligently incorporating soy 
into your diet.


Dr. Aaron Tabor:   I totally agree, but I think you have new evidence tonight that your 
definition of high isoflavones is not actually a high level according to your own expert.  
And I wholeheartedly agree with you that women taking soy PILLS should exercise caution, as 
these have an unproven track record as PURIFIED chemicals.  Many opponents of soy have an 
FDA conspiracy theory - that the FDA is hiding information.

The FDA recently banned 2 one-billion dollar per year drugs.  The soy market is much smaller 
than this.  I assure everyone that the FDA is trying its best to regulate further the 
dietary supplement industry,and if there were proven harm to soy, the FDA would act swiftly 
and severely. 


Dearest:    I would personally like to make a comment about that, Mary, because I have known 
Dr. Tabor for years and have great respect for his integrity and honorability. I really 
don't believe he would "push" a product if he knew there were dangers involved with 
it. He is, remember, a physician first.

In any event, this has been a wonderful chat. I thank you BOTH for sharing your expertise 
with us on this subject and hoep everyone will join me in thanking you for your time to join 
us and share this information. Thanks. Sorry for keeping you so late. Hope we can do it 
again very soon :)


Mary Shomon:   I don't doubt that Dr. Tabor believes that he is doing a positive service to 
women, and no doubt that many women benefit from his product, and from soy isoflavone in 
general. No dispute at all. I just think the jury is still out on this issue, much more 
research needs to be done, and until then, women with thyroid problems should be careful.


Dr. Aaron Tabor:   Goodnight everyone!


Dearest:    Goodnight, Dr. Tabor.Thank you!


Mary Shomon:   Thank you, Dearest, for having me! It was really interesting!!!!!


Dearest:    Goodnight, Mary, and thank you! Goodnight, everyone. Thank you 
for coming and participating in this informative and spirited chat.



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