Dearest:  My guest tonight, Barbara Seaman, has been a women's health advocate
for more than 40 years. Barbara is the co-founder of the National Women's Health 
Network, a women's advocacy group in Washington, D.C., a national judge of the 
Project Censored Awards, and an advanced science writing Fellow at Columbia 
University's School of Journalism.

Barbara is the author of several books. Her newest addresses the "medicalization"
of menopause, how pharmaceutical companies and doctors have put profit above health 
care and have turned menopause into a disease by plying women with drugs, including 
hormones. Barbara's revealing and controversial new book is, "The Greatest
Experiment Ever Performed on Women: Exploding the Estrogen Myth".

In 1967, Barbara authored the landmark, "The Doctors' Case Against the Pill". Other 
books have been, "For Women Only: Your Guide to Health Empowerment", "The Menopause 
Industry: How the Medical Establishment Exploits Women", Free and Female, Women and 
the Crisis in Sex Hormones" and "Lovely Me The Life of Jacqueline Susann". Barbara 
has contributed frequently to The New York Times, the Washington Post, Ms., Hadassah 
Magazine, Ladies' Home Journal, Brides, and Family Circle.

Gloria Steinem said, "Barbara Seaman is the first prophet of the women's health 
movement and her prophesies are still coming true." 

It's a pleasure to welcome you to Power Surge, Barbara. 


Barbara Seaman:  Thank you for inviting me.  I'm glad to be here. 


Dearest:  Barbara, what was your initial reaction to the halting of the WHI (Women's 
Health Initiative Study in July of last year?


Barbara Seaman:  Oh, I knew it was coming. It was very clear when they were sending 
letters to the volunteers every year advising them that there was more heart trouble 
in the group getting PremPro than in the group getting placebos.

The other thing was that there was very bad news coming in on cancer from the 
National Cancer Institute.  Starting in early 2000 they found that women who were 
taking combination hormones had twice the rate of breast cancer increase than women 
taking estrogen alone. But the estrogen alone also had a higher rate of breast 
cancer than the women taking no hormones.  But at the same time it was clear that 
it was very dangerous for a woman with a uterus to take estrogen alone.  The risk of 
endometrial cancer was equivalent to lung cancer from smoking. 

It was also discovered in that period that if you took estrogen alone you were more 
likely to get ovarian cancer than if you took it with progestins. 

It was known by 1951 by serious scientists that cancer was happening but it was 
suppressed by the drug companies. 


Dearest:  Barbara, Power Surge has spoken openly for ten years about the dangers 
associated with synthetic hormones, such as PremPro (Premarin and Provera). Why has 
it taken 50 years of women being prescribed synthetic hormones and then the halting 
of the WHI study last year to bring attention to these concerns so many of us have 
been aware of for so long? 


Barbara Seaman:  There was a big effort by the leading cancer studies in the early 
1930s that estrogen increased the risk of reproductive cancers.  The doctor who 
invented the pap smear, Dr. George Papanicolaou, wrote editorials in the journals
of the JAMA in 1939 warning that doctors should not use estrogen in menopause 
treatment and that the FDA should not approve it because it was too powerful and 
there was too much that was not known before it could be used safely.  He was just 
one, of course. 


WhiteHorses:  Hello Barbara. Do you know of any studies (or information) on hormonal 
levels in prepubescent girls? 


Barbara Seaman:  Can you reframe the question, please?  Are you asking about early 
puberty? 


WhiteHorses:  I felt much better before puberty, I would like to know what the 
levels of hormones were when I felt well. 


Barbara Seaman:  There are not a lot of female hormones circulating until puberty 
and then, of course, they decline again at menopause.  But, contrary to what some 
doctors make us believe, the post menopausal ovary continues to produce both the 
female and male hormones at lower levels than the child bearing years.  Many women 
feel much better once their periods and menstrual cycles are over.  It has been 
hushed up by the drug companies. They talk about deficiencies. 


Dearest:  Where did the term "estrogen deficiency" emanate from, and isn't it 
natural as women get older for their estrogen levels to be lower? I have a 91 year 
old mother who's never suffered because of lower levels of estrogen.


Barbara Seaman:  I have a 92 year old step-mother and I can say the same thing.
She doesn't suffer from estrogen deficiency.  It is not a valid term, it's a product 
of marketing.  

In the early 1940s there were two scientists who suggested that there was an 
estrogen deficiency at least in some women.  They were both very good scientists. 

Dr. Fuller Albright at Harvard was a good scientist and father of metabolic bone 
disease.  He discovered that the bone isn't static.  He proposed that estrogen be 
given to prevent loss of bone mass.  He wrote his first paper on this in 1941 in 
JAMA but he was dealing with women who had their ovaries removed and we all know 
that if you are castrated (radical hysterectomy) you are much more likely to have
a severe menopause.  So those women had rapid bone loss especially if the ovaries 
were removed before natural menopause.  In those women, giving them estrogen DID 
keep their bones stronger but this was science by press release, as I call it 
because the full story was never told that this was a special group of women and 
that set a precedent with bits of information concealed.  So Dr. Albright was the 
first to bring up estrogen deficiency but he was really referring to radical 
hysterectomies. 

Dr. Robert Greenblatt was the head of endocrinology in the US at the Medical College 
of Georgia in Augusta and he believed that women would have a better sex drive, 
retain nice skin longer, etc if they took hormones but he believed in using a 
combination of estrogen and testosterone.  He also invented pellets that were sewn 
under the skin that lasted up to 6 months.  Rich women and royalty would come to him 
twice a year.  This was in the 40s after World War II. 


Dr Wolfe:  I have read the literature diligently and it is my impression that 
medroxyprogesterone (Provera) is the real "bad actor" in the picture, not estrogen. 
Is this correct, and can you comment on the use of the newer progestational agents 
such as norethindrone and norgestrel's use in menopause?


Barbara Seaman:  Well, first of all, it is clear that the combination of estrogen 
and progesterone is more dangerous for some organs in the female body although it is 
protective of other organs.  The uterus and endrometrium were estrogen alone would 
be dangerous.  A lot of people are saying that Progestin is the culprit but I 
wouldn't put it that way.  I would say that it interacts with the estrogen in a way 
that can do MORE harm to some parts of the body while protecting other parts.  We 
still have a lot to learn about which other products will be safer. 


Dearest:  I can't think of a more gentile way of asking this, but aren't many doctors
being "bought" by the pharmaceutical companies with all sorts of perks and 
compensation for "pushing" their drugs?


Barbara Seaman:  HAHAHA!  It's complicated. I think there are wicked and important 
doctors who take a lot of money from the hormone companies.  They let the companies 
ghost write articles for them, they pay them huge lecture fees and what is more 
dangerous in some ways is that they write the continuing medical education courses 
(CMEs) on BEHALF of the drug companies and the normal doctors have to take 50 
credits a year to keep their license.  

So they are being taught about hormones and menopause by the drug industries fronted 
by these prominent doctors but I think the average doctor, even those who can be 
quite pushy, means well toward his or her patient but has been trusting the 
"experts" and the drug company representative too much. I think/hope that is 
changing now. 


JanK:  Hi Barbara. What do you think of the benefits of increased soy in the diet as 
an alternative to prescribed hormone therapies to reduce some perimenopausal 
discomforts? 


Barbara Seaman:  For the latest info on that you should ask Dr. Susan Love.    
I know many women who say that the soy has helped them control hot flashes but the 
question is would a lot of soy be estrogenic and cause cancer or make cells divide. 


Dyan4:  I started taking DIM-Plus (Diindolylmethane) because I have fibroids and 
doctor wanted to do a hysterectomy. (I said NO Way) This little pill has changed my 
life.  It leveled out estrogen and now instead of a period every two weeks I have 
been normal!  I suffered for years now feel wonderful at 48! Do you know about DIM? 
Thank you!


Barbara Seaman:  No, I haven't heard of it but it sounds interesting and I will 
certainly look it up. 


Guest51:  I had some saliva testing done and it showed that my progesterone and 
testosterone were low. The doctor prescribed progesterone only in 300mg extend tabs 
2x per day. I was not feeling any better so just went off was hot flashing 
incessantly she wanted me to try Estratest I didn't go to her office to pick up 
samples.  Any thoughts on this?


Barbara Seaman:  Estratest is too high in testosterone.  That is a known fact.  
There is an appendix in my book that talks about this.  It is too complicated to 
discuss here.  Read my book, do your own research.  We've trusted the "experts"
too long. 


Dancern22:  Do you think there is any risk to Bio-Identical Hormones? I am on 
transdermal estradiol 0.6mg and 200mg natural progesterone. 


Barbara Seaman:  There are very good claims for natural hormones but there has not 
been a lot of research on that YET. 


Dancern22:  Are they just claims?


Barbara Seaman:  As far as most of the research goes the patch is just as likely to 
increase of breast cancer and heart attack as if you took it by mouth.  There are 
some studies that indicate the patch may cause less blood clotting than taking it by 
mouth.  This is transdermal delivery. I do not really know that answer on natural 
hormones yet.


Suri:  What are doctors doing about alternatives to HRT? Thank you. 


Dearest:  Suri, let me carry your question a little further.  You not only address 
HRT, but other drugs women have been given to treat menopause - something that 
doctors have classified as a "disease" rather than a natural process. What do you 
think about today's women being prescribed drugs such as SSRI's and anti-seizure 
medications to treat their menopausal symptoms? 


Barbara Seaman:  I think it's a continuation of medicalizing menopause. 15% (some 
say 12%) of the women who feel they are wiped out by menopause are willing to take 
something dangerous because they feel they can't function.  If any of us are in 
pain, we'll take pain killers.  If they've medicalized menopause they want to 
continue to make the women dependent on the prescription pad. 

The average gynecologist reaches a certain age and doesn't want to keep delivering 
children in the middle of the night so s/he tries to keep the middle age women on 
prescriptions to have patients. 


Kataneena:  Would there be any circumstance where you would recommend HRT?
What if you experience surgical menopause?


Barbara Seaman:  First of all I'm not a doctor, I don't want to recommend.  Would I 
take it? I'm not sure.  If I lost my ovaries in my 20s or 30s I might take it a year 
or two because it's a radical change in the body.  If I were at normal menopause age 
and had a shocking menopause I might but I would try other things first.  Vitamin E, 
evening primrose oil, etc, many women claim these help. 

Would there be any circumstances were I would recommend it?  I don't know.  I would 
have to study, educate myself.  In Europe, as soon as hot flashes stopped they would 
taper off the estrogen over a year, very slowly and the women would be fine and 
Europe has lower incidence of cancer.  Doctors here didn't want to stop after a year 
so they devised the fountain of youth theory. 

If you have serous complaints, you should consider taking it for a short time 
period. 


Dearest:  You talk about the marketing strategies of the pharmaceutical companies in 
selling estrogen. But, what is the connection between the pharmaceutical company and 
the doctor who prescribes it to every one of his menopausal patients? 


Barbara Seaman:  I think we discussed that some.  Many of the doctors were "lead" to 
believe that they were doing something wonderful for their patients.  The more 
typical doctors were flattered by the drug companies. They "thought" they were doing 
the right thing.  Some doctors were outright bribed with money and trips.  A friend 
of mine had a clinic with poor patients in her practice.  Johnson and Johnson told 
her that if she didn't write enough prescriptions for her paying customers that she 
would not continue to get free samples for her poor patients.  She felt caught in 
the middle and was trying to do best for her patients. 


Sissymerc53:  I talked to my doctor about this very website, and some of the 
findings about HRT, and he said I would be safe for 5 years.  He put me on estradiol 
.5 mg on days 1-25, and medroxyprogesterone 5 mg on days 15-25.  I feel good.  
Should I worry? 


Barbara Seaman:  Sad to say that the answer is yes.  5 years of artificial based 
on the Million Women Study published in England said that the breast cancer happens 
sooner than what they thought previously.  Also, keep in mind that if women had 
taken birth control for years earlier she might start to develop an increased cancer 
risk after a SHORT time on estrogen for menopause.  There is some relationship on 
how much estrogen she took earlier. 

The other thing is that starting in 1997 we learned that there are different kind of 
estrogen receptors beta some others and now that we know about this we realize that 
drug companies were flying blind assuming that there was just one kind of estrogen 
receptor.  Now everything is being rethought.  There are estrogen receptors in the 
lung that they didn't know about before. 

Dr. Jill Siegfred is a great researcher on estrogen receptors in the lung.  You 
could look her up on the Internet explaining the new estrogen receptors.  Once the 
estrogen receptors are remapped there is more hope that they can create something 
safer.  There is a lot we STILL don't know.  We are all still learning and what is 
horrifying we don't know the long term effects partly due to the sexism in research.  
They did long clinical trials on aspirin for men before they ever approved it to 
protect heart attacks and for estrogen and women they shot first and apologized 
later.  No long term research on the effects of the drug. 


Sue:  Barbara, I've been having my period since August 13th, heavy, my doctor put me 
on Provera for 10 days and it did nothing I took the last one yesterday tomorrow I 
have an appointment with her what should I expect of her as far as test, treatment? 
(the Provera I was on was 10mg) Thank you! 


Barbara Seaman:  Well, if you're having perimenopause, there is a certain point in 
menopause were women have horrendous bleeding.  Are you still menstruating?  Heavy 
bleeding?  Is it irregular?  How old are you? 


Sue:  It had been a couple months since my last period.  I'm 47, very heavy 
bleeding, irregular for past 1 1/2 years.  


Barbara Seaman:  Yes, I would have guessed 48.  This is common at this time.  I 
personally chose not to have it treated when it happened to me because I knew that 
it wouldn't last more than 6 months to a year and that I would probably have no more 
than 3 - 5 really bad bleeds of this type. 

It should be over soon.  The danger is that the symptoms it is not unusually there 
could be serous reason for the irregular bleeding that you should check out but if 
it is due to changing hormones don't let yourself be talked into a hysterectomy or 
strong drugs unless you're desperate. 

Try to pamper yourself, keep your feet elevated.   Back to the question.  The 
aftereffects of the estrogen you might take could be worse than the symptoms of 
heavy bleeding. 


Jane25:  I started on natural hormones about 3 weeks ago from the Natural Pharmacy. 
Although, they have reduced my hot flashes and anxiety I now have breast tenderness 
and acne. So I have no idea what's going on. I feel like I'm going to get a period 
after not having 1 for a year. I realize you aren't a doctor.
Just stating what is happening to me on natural hormones. 


Barbara Seaman:  This isn't uncommon.  Again, we don't know that much about natural 
hormones. There are many women who feel great and many who get the same symptoms as 
synthetic hormones.  Everybody is different. We haven't clarified who benefits from 
what product, we need more research.  There have been many claims on little 
research.  The thing is - we know are bodies best, listen to them.  We are the 
experts on our own body.


Janspon54:  If you can possibly make it through menopause without taking hormones at 
all, is that the best way to go? 


Barbara Seaman:  I think so.  Personally, for me it was but I don't want to be taken 
as the authority.  There are some people under some circumstances who may benefit 
from receiving hormones for a while.  A women without ovaries might consider taking 
something for a while but menopause is a natural stage in life.  If you're having a 
miserable menopause, then you might seek treatment.  

From what I've seen 40 - 50%, some say 70%, have hot flashes but nothing intolerable.  
15% have horrible menopause.  It's the marketing again to give it to all there has 
been fear put into women.  Deficiency disease, that's a scary phrase, but we 
actually have the right amount required for our age.  Those terms, and the drop in 
status of women at that age in our culture have women feeling that they will be 
useless after menopause.  I think that has changed some in recent years but youth 
is still the focus so we look to doctors for an answer. 

The important thing for many women to keep in mind the years in their lives when 
they feel best really are from about 50 - 70 years old.  We get our lives back, we 
put menstrual period behind us, why are women afraid of hot flashes?  Of the natural 
cycle?  Women do not die from menopause.  They might have wished they were dead 
after all the suffering but many women HAVE died from the treatment of menopause 
strokes, gall bladder disease, etc.

As I said before, the symptoms are not nearly as dangerous as some of the effects of 
the treatment for menopause. 



Lorraine:  I had a radical ovaries/uterus when I was 35. Have been taking estrogen, 
Premarin 0.625 for 25 years!  How do you get off it after all this time if you feel 
that I shouldn't still be taking it? My girlfriends have gone off and are having 
nothing but problems, now doctors are putting them on Anti-depressants (Zoloft) to 
curb the hot flashes and mood swings. I'm going the the doctor Tuesday.  What should 
I ask for?  I was under the impression that estrogen with the answer to all my 
problems for the last 25 years! If it is not broke, don't fix it was my doctor's 
saying. 


Barbara Seaman:  I'm mad at these doctors for putting all these women on hormones 
and now they are just taking them off instead of weaning them off over a year.  Ask 
your doctor to help you taper off over a year.  You don't have to worry about cancer 
without a uterus.  This is what they were doing in England in 1945 and the protocol 
was to taper off over a full year.  Your doctor can develop a regimen to help you 
with that.  He may not think you need to go off of it but I would ask him to help 
you wean off of it. 

It is your body, it is your decision.  If I were in your situation, I would have 
probably taken estrogen for a year or so at that young of an age exactly what 
product I would take - I would study that first. 


Lorraine:  Thanks Barbara. I'll make sure he understands my feelings. I think 
tapering over a year should allow my body to adjust. I take quite a few 
vitamins/minerals and food supplements that should help me through this. 


Barbara Seaman:  Great Lorraine.  Eat healthy, listen to your body.


Guest277:  I am using natural hormones and they have helped me tremendously with 
everything but my skin. I have horrible facial cysts and inflamed acne. I am now on 
transdermal Estradiol 0.6 Progesterone 50MG/0.5ML. I too wonder about the effects of 
natural hormones and intend to get a blood test to checking my clotting; my Mother 
clotted on HRT and eventually had a stroke. Any suggestions for the acne? 


Barbara Seaman:  I am sorry to hear about your mom.  With your family history, I 
would suggest that you be very careful about taking any hormones. 

Do you think the acne came from taking the hormones or did you have it before?  Did 
it start AFTER you started taking the hormones? 


Guest277:  No, I had some as a teen but never like this.  I got the acne before I 
went on the hormones.  I have been using them for 2 1/2 months. I had a lot of 
problems and a hysterectomy 10+ years ago.


Barbara Seaman:  Well, your hormones change while going through menopause.  Skin 
problems happen during that time.  It's like puberty in reverse.  Go to a dermatologist. 


Guest277:  Yes, I've been to the dermatologist, had laser treatment, nothing is 
working.  I was trying to stay off Accutane. 


Barbara Seaman:  Try going to a cosmetologist for regular facials which can be 
expensive.  


Guest277:  Also they can't really inject the cysts like the dermatologist can. 


Barbara Seaman:  I would strongly suggest that you check out a good cosmetologist in 
your city.  One of the things we have to deal with when taking medication is that 
they are testing on young men who weigh much more than women.  Older women take 
more medication than other groups, yet they don't include them in the tests and the 
dose is set for young middle-aged men.  The men weigh more and metabolize the drug 
differently.  There is a bias against using women in clinical trials partly due to 
pregnancy and it is easy and cheaper to do it on one group.  They test on men and 
start with higher doses to show that it is effect.  Then, when they give it to a women who 
weighs much less and metabolizes differently they are overdosing her and you are 
asking for problems. 


Guest277:  With Accutane it goes by blood levels but I heard the side effects are 
awful. I can see you aren't keen on drug companies, etc. and I understand that. I 
weigh only 95 lbs. 


Dearest:  In the final analysis, to whom is the FDA answerable? I mean, they 
approved drugs like DES and Thalidomide, to say nothing of Phen Phen and other drugs 
that have caused catastrophic results. 


Barbara Seaman:  The FDA should be answerable to the consumer.  It was established 
as a consumer protection agency to keep the drug and food supply safe.  In recent 
years, instead of being funded by public money to save taxpayer money, the FDA can 
now take funding from the drug companies.  I think the FDA tries but they have made 
mistakes and with the new laws they are becoming more dependent on drug company 
money for funding.  I ask that each of your research this and write to your congress 
people.  This is dangerous. 


Dearest:  In closing, what good do you believe has come or will come from the WHI 
Study? 


Barbara Seaman:  I think that the WHI will set a new standard on research on drugs 
for women.  We have never before have a clinical study of this size and magnitude.  
I'm not saying the WHI is perfect but it was more comprehensive than past studies.  
Any research, however good it is, is based on certain models and suppositions and 
there are times when there are alternatives, when people think one way of looking at 
it is better and others say there is another way to look at it.  So in breast cancer 
there are two respected models.  My point, I think, is that there is nothing perfect 
in medical science so far.  We are setting a newer higher standard and the WHI is 
better than past studies.  People will begin understanding the difference between a 
clinical trial and an observation.  

It is true that women who take Premarin have less heart disease.  That was noted in 
many observation trials such as the famous Harvard Nurses Study.  However, the women 
who take Premarin are different to start with.  They are richer, better educated, 
taller, thinner.  This have been proven.  They are in better health to begin with 
and they do not have preexisting conditions.  Women who were poor do not take it and 
poverty is a big predictor of heart disease, etc.  This was known at the time when 
the FDA turned down the application in 1990. 


Dearest:  Barbara, thank you for joining us in Power Surge tonight to answer our 
questions about estrogen and the greatest experiment. I applaud you for your candor 
and the work you've done over the years to enlighten and educate us. 

I highly recommend Barbara Seaman's new book, "The Greatest Experiment Ever 
Performed On Women."


Barbara Seaman:  Thank you for listening to me!
 



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