Hi, I just signed up and noticed that a lot of you are still having migraines, and it looks like one person has posted about high blood pressure. I just thought I'd tell you about my migraine history and maybe it will help some of you, too. I first started having migraines in my 30's and they were so bad that I would vomit and sometimes have to go to the ER for pain shots. I was happy when Imitrex came out, as it helped a lot, but after menopause started, Imitrex and even Demerol shots did nothing for my constant 24/7 migraine. (Mine starts at the back of my neck.) I was using the strongest estrogen patch but had developed high blood pressure and heart palpitations and a whole bunch of other symptoms. I went to a bunch of doctors, but none of them were any help. They assumed that since I was on the estrogen patch, it couldn't be lack of estrogen.

To make a long story short, I finally figured out on my own that my headaches and high blood pressure and palpitations were due to estrogen deficiency. I wasn't absorbing the patch's estradiol very well. I now use compounded bioidentical estrogen gel twice a day, and I decide on my own dose according to my need. You can start with the dose your doctor recommends, but then increase daily by small amounts until you get to the dose that stops the headache. No need to stick with your doctor's dose for a month or more. Bioidentical estrogen does not accumulate over time, so you are not going to get better by waiting. Once you get to your individual "right dose", the migraines, HBP, heart palpitations, and just about every other symptom of menopause will vanish. Without the exactly right dose, some symptoms may go away, while others remain. If you take too much, you will get bloat and breast pain, and then you need to cut back a little.

I find that I need a .75 mg. estradiol dose most of the time, but if I start to get a migraine, I will add an extra .1 mg. estradiol, and it goes away as soon as the estradiol is absorbed. I don't wait until the migraine gets bad; I take the extra estrogen as soon as I feel the first twinge of a neckache. I haven't always needed .75 mg, either. There have been times when I have had to gradually raise my dose to 1 mg. or lower it to .5 mg. Your body will tell you exactly what you need. Estrogen dosing is a lot like insulin dosing---a balancing act that can only be done by the patient. It is explained very well in a book by Dr. Uzzi Reiss called "Natural Hormone Balance for Women". Most doctors don't understand this, but Dr. Reiss does, so read his book! There is no need to suffer and take multiple drugs for all the different symptoms of menopause once you find your correct dose of estradiol.

Hi 123 ,
I am so glad you are not experiencing what so many of us suffer from, even with treatment of some kind. I am still curious, however, if your own personal doctor subscribes to this as treatment? I understand we are our own best advocate, but I still wonder.
Have a great day, 123 and thank you for some informative food for thought.
(((Hugs)))
Angel

With a patch or a pill or capsule or ring, you are stuck with whatever dose your doctor gives you. You feel bad about bothering him to change the dose. I first started out with Estrace, and I was cutting the pill in halves and then quarters trying to get just what I needed, but it wasn't very exact. I kept bothering my doctor so much with telephone calls that I asked him to prescribe the gel so that I could "add a little more or less" as needed. I think he agreed just to get me off his back! I get a .5 mg. estradiol/.5 mg. estrone per gm of gel prescription. I usually take 1 & 1/2 gm. of gel per dose. Getting the .5 mg per gm. prescription makes it easier to figure out small increases or decreases because a gm. of gel equals 1/4 tsp. and the compounding pharmacies will give you a measuring spoon for the 1/4 tsp. (Creams are different.) I have an extra set of measuring spoons from ebay called "dash, pinch, & smidgen". They measure 1/8, 1/16, and 1/32 teaspoons. So the dash gives me .25 mg. of estrogen, the pinch gives me .125 mg. of estrogen, and the smidgen gives me .06 mg. of estrogen. You will be amazed that you can have head-splitting pain on, (for example) .5 mg. estradiol, and NO PAIN on .6 mg. estradiol, but it is true.

My menopause symptoms were extreme. Instead of brief hot flashes, I ran a 2 degree fever. When my estrogen dipped really low, I got the shakes, dizziness, severe muscle aches, pain radiating down my left arm from my chest, pounding heart with HBP, and of course, a horrible migraine with nausea. But the RIGHT DOSE of estrogen has stopped all that. Other symptoms that I had which disappeared: deep depression, fuzzy thinking, irritability, rosacea, dry eyes, vaginal dryness, insomnia, urinary urgency, heartburn, & diarrhea. There is probably no doctor in the world who realizes that diarrhea can be caused by lack of estrogen, but estrogen affects every system in the body! I had suffered from the diarrhea several times a day since having my gall bladder removed at age 43, but with the right dose of estrogen, it disappeared for good. (I'm 60 now.) I think lack of estrogen causes spasms in the digestive system which may be responsible for some cases of "irritable bowel" and "heartburn".

Estrogen dips lowest every day and night at around 3 (or 4, considering Daylight Savings Time), so you will often find yourself hungry and headachey at that time of day and awake at that time of night. I found that adding a little extra estradiol an hour before the "3 or 4 PM munchies" kept me from being hungry. I gained 80 lb. within a few months of menopause at age 50. I now realize that my body was desperate to give me some estrogen, and fat makes estrone, a type of estrogen. After I was on my RIGHT DOSE of estrogen, I lost that 80 lb. which I had been completely unable to lose from ages 50 to 58. With the right dose of estrogen, the gnawing hunger pains stopped. Your body knows better than your doctor how much estrogen you need! Your body will stop you from ever taking "too much" by giving you breast pain and tenderness.

Sometimes a gynecologist is the worst possible doctor you can go to if you are trying to find doctor willing to prescribe bioidentical hormones. They are basically trained as surgeons, not endocrinologists. And most endocrinologists concentrate on diabetes and thyroid, leaving the sex hormones to gynecologists. I found that a doctor whose practice centers on "life extension, "longevity", "anti-aging", etc., is more open-minded and knowledgeable about bioidentical patient-centered dosing, and I switched to one of those.

Hi 123,
I just wanted to tell you that your posts are so encouraging to me. Thank you for taking the time to write all that. I have had migraines forever, although much worse as I have gotten older. I just started using bioidentical hormones about a month and 1/2 ago and am doing better. I can tell I still need some adjusting, but I am seeing a decrease in my migraines, along with my other menopausal symptoms.

Are you using progesterone and testosterone too? I think that what is helping me is the biest, but I am also taking these others, progesterone for 14 or so days a month and testosterone everyday, like the biest. I think that my creams are at a really low strength to start and I have to get another hormone test next month but my doctor is a gynocologist who specializes in BHRT and she is very helpful and has adjusted me already based on my symptoms. I can see that it would make sense as I go along to adjust myself a little daily if necessary.

Thank you again for sharing your experience. It is so good to know that someone is able to get rid of their migraines this way!

First of all, you need to find out what strength your cream is so you will know how to adjust it. Second, getting an estrogen blood level at a doctor's office is not very useful. That is just one point in time, and it tells you nothing about what your estrogen is doing later on in the day, tomorrow, next week, etc. That is what doctors just don't understand. Estrogen rises and falls all the time, the same way that blood sugar does. After menopause, the estradiol blood level will depend on when you last took your dose of estrogen, what you ate for lunch, whether you are on the progesterone part of your cycle, etc. I find that if I eat a lot of carbohydrates, my need for estrogen increases. (Or maybe my estrogen is already low that day, and so I crave fat-making carbohydrates!)

I always get headaches when I start the progesterone, so I only take it every 2 or 3 months. I have recently found that increasing estrogen during the progesterone days helps. I really don't like progesterone, and have had to decrease to only 25 mg. twice a day. I wouldn't take it at all, but I have a uterus and have to "clean it out" every now and then so that I don't have spotting. I do not take testosterone because I had a problem with oily skin & acne during my premenopause days and with rosacea postmenopause. My hair has also gotten thinner since menopause, so I don't dare add testosterone. Without estrogen, I think I would be bald!

Here is a CBS interview with Dr. Reiss, which is interesting.
http://www.cbs.com/cbs_cares/menopause/men...view_uzzi.shtml
He talks about how some women's bodies just don't react well to progesterone, and I am one of those.

Hi 123,
I cant tell you how interesting and helpful this was for me.This cleared up many a mystery.

One question....Was your "dizzy" like a off balance feeling ? right now this has been the most troubling for me along with acid reflux.Ive had all of what you have described some symptoms come some go... and others revisit after a yr or so!!


Again,Thanks so much for this info...Im sure you have helped others here as well

Lynda

Yes, when I got dizzy & had a bad migraine, I had to lie down in bed. I had the reflux-type squeezing pain, but without the reflux, because I had no gall bladder to produce concentrated bile. I see all these different people on this message board having all these different symptoms, and I know that in nearly all cases, it could all be stopped by the right dose of estrogen. I just left a message on the "Weight" topic, too, as that was a significant problem for me. On boards like these, you will usually only find sister sufferers, as those without symptoms are off living their lives.

I had such horrible symptoms that I was not able to just be a "good little patient" and accept what my doctors told me I would have to live with. I had a magnetic resonance arteriograms of my head, CT scans & barium enema X-rays for my gut symptoms, even a spinal tap for my fever. I guess they all thought I was neurotic, as no cause was ever discovered for my symptoms. If a menopausal woman has depression, the doctor will offer an anti-depressant. If she has high blood pressure, he gives her hypertension medicine. If she has insomnia, he gives her a sleeping pill. If she has...well, you get the idea. It is not even going to cross the doctor's mind that all these symptoms started at menopause and therefore, the woman needs estrogen! If they think of estrogen at all, they are just going to think "estrogen is dangerous" because they read a headline that said so. To most doctors, estrogen means the horse urine drug Premarin. They don't have time to read the study themselves; they just read the headlines like everyone else.

My biest is .5mg and I use 1ml every day, it was supposed to be the whole amount in the morning but I do 1/2 in the morning and the other 1/2 in the evening. I've been told it is a pretty low dose, which is probably why it does'nt do the job completely.

My doctor told me to stop the progesterone for a bit. She had me using that everyday at first! I am nervous about starting it up again for the 2nd half of the month because I think it is a problem, but I thought that I had to use it to balance out the estrogen. Do you get a period when you use it?

The hormone test I had last was saliva, 4 times in one day. I had a blood test last year too. Both tests said the same thing...extremely low estrogen and testosterone and although my progesterone level was ok with this low of an amount of estrogen, when replacing the estrogen she said we needed to replace the progesterone so the ratio would be correct.

Do you get hormone tests at all?

I know I have a ways to go to get balanced but I feel all encouraged anyways because I see definite improvement, when nothing else has ever helped me except for triptans and I am just tired of drugs.

I thought that the testosterone was great at first because my sex drive came back but now I am wondering if it was from the estrogen.

So much to learn. Thanks for the link. I will look at it as soon as I have a chance!

I had zero sex drive for the first 8 years of menopause, but it came back after I got on the right dose of estrogen. I don't get hormone tests any more because, how is it really going to help me? At first, I went along with it to satisfy my doctor, but I need a certain amount of estrogen to feel well no matter what a blood or saliva test says, and since I don't have health insurance, I don't want to pay for useless tests.

I do have a period after the 12 days of the hated progesterone, which is a necessary clean-out to prevent uterine cancer. It is not natural to have unopposed estrogen building up the uterine lining forever, and we need to duplicate nature. But neither is it natural to have progesterone every day. Every two or three months is enough to prevent cancer. Some women just don't take it and have endometrial biopsies to check for cancer, but I don't like that option. I have had an endometrial biopsy, and they are no fun!

I need to use the gel twice a day, but some women can get by with once a day. Bi-est is estradiol plus estriol. Estriol is the main estrogen of pregnancy, so I avoid it. Although I have read that estriol is supposed to be much less likely to cause breast pain than the other estrogens, I found that it was the estrogen which caused me the most breast pain! Another example of individuality, I guess, but then breast tenderness is one of the first signs of pregnancy, so I am not sure that doctors really know that much about estriol's effects. I was not able to increase my estradiol to the amount that would stop the migraines without getting breast pain when I took Bi-est. Besides, estrone is the estrogen type which helps in weight loss the most, so I use estradiol with estrone in equal parts. Estrone is 12 X weaker than estradiol, but acts as a storage type of estrogen. It can be converted into estradiol as needed by your body, sort of like having gas in the tank. Fat also sits there giving you a tank of estrone to draw from, but I prefer not to have that big-belly storage tank!

You know why I'm always getting confused? Because everyone, even the "experts in BHRT" seem to say something different from one another. I just read the link you gave on Dr. Uzzi and he definitely sounds like he doesn't think using progesterone only 1/2 the month or less is good for you. He thinks you should always balance out the estrogen with progesterone. I guess, using it every day.

Susanne Somers doctor, Dr. Schartzbein thinks just the opposite. Can I ask where you learned all that you know? Are there any books you would recommend?

Another question...does your estradiol and estrone have a name (like the "biest")? It is good to know the info you wrote about estrone...being a storage type estrogen.

Also, the 12 days that you use progesterone...do you get migraines pretty much the whole time?

Thanks so much for taking the time to answer all my questions!

Thanks for sharing your information with us all - it's very enlightening. I just spent 5 hours in the Emergency Room yesterday because I've had what my doctor calls a "tension headache" since April 13th. I've feel like I'm wearing a tight cap on my head. I've never had this before and I thought because of the length of this headache I felt that I need to get it checked out. No medication I've tried so far is touching it. They gave me a shot of something yesterday and it took a little bit of the edge off but not much. The CAT scan came out normal thank God. I am in perimenopause and this was my 2nd trip to the ER, the first was last October for heart palpitations/racing heart I was getting in the middle of the night. EKG was normal and I also had a holter monitor for 24 hours last Nov. 4th too and that showed nothing either. I now have heart palpitation all day long and I have extremely bad insomnia that I've had to use xanax to get myself to sleep a few times. I also developed high blood pressure last year and just recently it was so high that the doctor put me on bp meds which I thought was giving me this tension/migrane headache. I stopped the first med after 3 weeks and started another one a week after I stopped the first. Stopping the first med didn't help relieve the headache and I thougt it definitely was the culprit. As a matter of fact I posted that in another thread for everyone to check to see if their meds might be the culprit. Anyway, I feel lousy all the time - this is no way to live. I brought up the bioidentical hormones to the gyno last week and she doesn't approve as they are not FDA approved but was willing to give me a prescription for it. She gave me HRT which I didn't take because the insert said a side effect could be High Blood Pressure so I decided it's not for me. A few weeks ago I called a number from the resources in a book on menopause written by Christiane Northrup, M.D. to get some info to locate a health practitioner who uses bioidentical hormones and I didn't get a return call. I will try to call someone else.
I hope I find some relief soon. The ER suggested that I see a headache specialist. At least the doc in the ER this time didn't think I was nuts when I asked the question, "can this be Perimenopause?" He said it was possible. Thanks again for the post - this is such a scary time right now, experiencing all of these symptoms has been extremely frightening.

Kar4242, all your symptoms are the same ones I have had. I can almost guarantee they are caused by low estrogen levels. Did your gynecologist check your blood estradiol? Even if it was "normal", though, it could be less than your "feel good" level, or it could be taking a dive every day. I think you need to see another doctor. It is ridiculous for a doctor to say that bioidentical hormones have not been proven safe. Every woman who has ever lived has had these hormones circulating in her bloodstream her whole life without FDA approval! Look in the Yellow Pages for doctors who specialize in "bioidentical hormones", not necessarily gynecologists.

The interesting thing about low estrogen migraines is that nothing but estrogen will make them go away--not even narcotics, at least not for long. When I was in my 30's and starting to have a decline of estrogen, I did not know that that is what was causing my migraines. I took Imitrex shots, as for the first year on the market, that is the only form Imitrex came in. They were so painful! Sometimes they worked, but other times they didn't, and I couldn't understand why. Finally, when I was in menopause at 50, I had a non-stop 24/7 migraine for 3 months and went to the neurologist for a brain scan. I was sitting there in his office when I had a hot flush, and he noticed and said, "You know, your face is turning bright red right now." He still didn't connect my migraines to lack of estrogen because I was wearing an estrogen patch, but I did! He wanted to put me on blood pressure medicine, but instead, I got a prescription for bioidentical estrogen from another doctor. Strange how doctors want to give you multiple man-made drugs "approved by the FDA" when one little natural hormone is all you need. Until you get your hormones straightened out, I suggest taking melatonin for insomnia instead of Xanax. Xanax can be addictive.

I've read some of Christiane Northrup, and I didn't think much of her. My impression was that she thought women were imagining their symptoms due to emotional problems. Anyway, Women's International Pharmacy in Madison, Wisconsin compounds hormones and can refer you to a doctor in your area who uses their mail-order pharmacy.

Kalmar, I know that Dr. Reiss thinks women should take progesterone every day. He thinks it is natural for women to be pregnant all the time! Some women feel their best when pregnant, but others are miserable, and he does admit that some women have a bad reaction to progesterone. I don't think he would make women who get constant migraines with progesterone take it every day. In any case, you have to take what is useful for you from each doctor and ignore the rest. For example, one doctor whose books have taught me a lot is Dr. Elizabeth Vliet. I recommend any of her books. (Check them ouot on Amazon. Sometimes you can get used books there very cheap.) However, she believes strongly in the estrogen patch, and I don't think that is a good form because you can't change the dose easily with that form, so I ignore that part of her books. She doesn't much like progesterone, but feels some of it is necessary every 2 or 3 months. I go along with that because progesterone was giving me a daily migraine. I learned something from her book, though, which is that progesterone is an estrogen blocker! So this last time, I increased my estrogen even more while on the progesterone and that, plus decreasing the progesterone dose, gave me relief from the 12 days of migraines that I was getting on progesterone.

The best teacher is experience. Keep a log in which you write down the time of day you take your dose, the amount of the dose, and the time that your symptoms appear and disappear. You will be able to see things like how long it takes a dose to be absorbed (3 hours for an oral dose for me, 1 to 2 hours for a dermal dose for me) and whether the dose is working or not. Also, you may need to take more or less of a dose at night. I would get sore breasts at night from taking the daytime dose, so I now decrease the nighttime dose by about .1 mg. estradiol. This is the same thing a diabetic has to do. It is a lot of trouble, but if you have severe symptoms, it is essential. I would literally want to die if I could not have my estrogen!

No, my estrogen is not called "Biest". I used to think so, but Biest is estradiol and estriol (the pregnancy hormone). Just ask for a gel which contains estradiol and estrone in equal portions. Dr. John Lee thought that estriol prevented breast cancer, but there is not much proof of that. It's really too weak to stop any symptoms, but it is the third ingredient in Tri-est. It is supposedly 30X weaker than estradiol, but it gave me breast pain, so I don't use it. Dr. Reiss's book "Natural Hormone Balance for Women" is essential reading, even if you ignore his progesterone recommendations. Suzanne Somers book is just a bit of fluff, but I do give her credit for raising women's consciousness about bioidentical hormones.

One other thing, and that is that generics are not always equivalent to brand names, no matter what the government, the pharmacists, and the health insurers try to tell you. I was using Estrace tablets early in menopause, and when I switched to generic estradiol, my symptoms reappeared. Those pills were just too weak. I suppose they would have worked if I had spent a week gradually increasing the dose, but my symptoms were too bad for me to take the time. When you have a prescription compounded for you, you should try to stick with the same compounder, because the strengths may vary a little from different compounders.

Thanks so much for all the info, advice and book recommendations! I talked with my doctor yesterday and asked if I could raise my biest dose. We went from .5mg, 1ml. a day to 1.0mg, 1ml a day. I can't wait to see if it makes a difference. I am still getting hot flashes and some migraines. I would love to be rid of them.

That is a big jump. You are increasing by .5 mg, when what you need may be only an extra .1 mg. Of course, it might be just right, but it could be too little or too much. Are you taking oral? The skin gel can be adjusted by you in small increments, and it also maintains a steadier level because it does not have to go through the liver. I did not know this for the first 8 years that I took oral, but I have been reading that oral "bioidentical estrogen" is not really bioidentical, because the liver changes it in some way. You get this big dump of estrogen all at once with the oral, and your body says, "Wow! This is too much! Let's make some SHBG (sex hormone binding globulin) to take some of this stuff out of circulation.") Only the skin form is really bioidentical in that it by-passes the liver and sits there in the skin, releasing it as your body needs it, more like the way your own estrogen worked. Also, if you are using Biest, you are using estradiol plus estriol. I found that I had to have estrone in addition to estradiol in order for my symptoms to stop. Obviously, that is not true for everyone, but something to consider if you don't get relief. Some doctors say, "Oh, estrone is bad because it is the postmenopausal estrogen, and that is when women get all these diseases." I think that is just guilt by association.

"big jump"... I know I was thinking the same thing, and after reading over all your posts I was thinking that I would not use the whole 1ml. to start. It is a cream. Maybe start with .6ml of the 1.0mg biest. Am I understanding it correctly?

Oh, it is a cream. Well, that is good. I've never used the cream. I remember when I got the spoon from Women's International Pharmacy, one end said "gm. gel" and the other end said "gm. cream". The gel side contained 1/4 tsp, but the cream side looked smaller. It might be only 1/8 tsp., but you'd have to put water in the spoon they gave you, and then pour it into your own kitchen measuring spoons to see how much it holds. It would help you to buy a set of the dash, pinch, smidgen measuring spoons from ebay so that you can be sure you are adding the same amount of cream each time. I can't think very well in metric, so I don't have a grasp of how much a ml is!

I just talked to a pharmacist at Bellevue who told me that a ml is 1/4 tsp. He said they sell sub-lingual pills of estradiol, too, and I am thinking of getting some of those for a quick little "boost" of about .1 mg. estradiol at my 3-4 PM "danger time". Occasionally, I find that I have not taken enough estrogen for that day and start to get a bit of a neckache or start thinking of doughnuts and chocolate! The gel takes an hour or two to take effect in me, so it would be nice to have something that worked quicker. Dr. Reiss says in his book that the sublingual form (he uses drops) works quicker, but also disappears quicker. He says it is great for stopping a migraine quickly.

My creams come in what looks a bit like a hypodermic needle thing! It is clearly marked so I know exactly what amount I am getting. Each (biest, progesterone, and testoserone) is 10 ml. (which I guess is milileter) total, broken down into 1ml increments. Each 1 milileter is also marked, broken down into .2, .4, .6 and .8. So it seems like it would be pretty easy to adjust and keep track.

Also it is marked that 1/2 tsp is equal to 2 and 1/2 mls. So I guess 1/4 tsp. would be a little bit more than 1 ml.... with these creams anyways!

I like these vials, even though they make me feel like I am shooting up or something!... and the easy way it is administered. I shoot out exactly the amount I need. They have a little cap for the end to keep them fresh.

I just started my progesterone today after my first 14 days off. The month before I took it the whole month.
So far so good. It is only 3% so I don't know if that is much or not, if I'll get a period or not.

That is interesting that you mentioned the chocolate and donuts...usually I am fine without these, but this past week I was craving chocolate and did get a few migraines. I'll be glad when I get my stronger strength biest next week.

Thanks again for all your help!

Thanks for the information and taking the time to share your story with me. I did call the Women's International Pharmacy and they gave me a list of doctors in my area. I called one and I'm waiting to hear back from her. I've been suffering terribly and had to leave work yet again today. I called my doctor again and asked him if he could call the neurologist to get me in before next Wednesday. I spoke to him about stopping my bp medication (the 2nd one I've tried) to see if some of my symptoms clear up. The doctor thinks my problem is stress and anxiety and suggests I see a psychiatrist. I told him I am in perimenopause and suggested that the lack of estrogen could be the culprit but he really does think it stress and anxiety more than anything - and the hormones might be a contributing factor. I have had severe anxiety problems in my past for a long time but nothing ever like these symptoms and I've had most of the ones you read about. I am going to have my eyes checked this Saturday to see if I could have eye strain. I'm hoping to hear from the doctor I called that was referred by the Women's International Pharmacy. Thanks again.

It is a sure sign that a doctor doesn't know what is wrong or how to treat you when he starts talking about stress and seeing a shrink! I once had a relentless, unbearable pain in my bile duct area, went to 6 different gastroenterologists, had a multitude of tests done, and was told it was "stress" and "irritable bowel", and I would just have to live with it. I had to fly across the country to find an expert who could diagnosis my problem. He operated on me through a scope down the throat and cured me. When I went back to my local gastroenterologist and told him what was really wrong, he had no comment to make at all. I felt like he should have apologized for telling me it was "stress", but they never admit mistakes. Good luck with your new doctor!

Kalmar, do you get your cream at one of the national mail order pharmacies, and if so, which one? The syringes sound like a better way to measure than measuring spoons. I just ordered a month's worth of gel in a jar from Bellevue (St. Louis) and it cost $67. I've never ordered from them before, and that seems high. How much do you pay for a month's worth of estrogen cream in the syringes?

I get my cream from Medaus Pharmacy in Birmingham, Alabama. My doctor likes them. She calls in my prescriptions and they make it up and send it to me. My insurance covers the biest and progesterone. I pay my co-pay. I have to pay for the testosterone myself and it is $30. month. I think the biest and progesterone are around the same. I will check for sure for you when I call to refill them next week.

Hi 123,
Very interesting and informative post. I too suffer from the same old problems: digestive issues, anxiety, depression and really bad muscle and joints pain. I got Rx for Biest (sublingual) and felt better whole taking it but progesteron in any form (tried it all) is hard to tolerate. I am getitng bad migranes, body aches, indigestion and really bad depression. I read Dr.Reiss book and Dr.Vlet, Dr. Lee but now I am positive that progesteron is not a miracle drug and I tolerate estrogen much better. But I could not take progesteron and got scared taking E alone. I think Estradiol is metabolized into Estrone. which is also made in fat cells, and this is predominant estrogen after menopause. This is what is thought to be cause cancer and other problems.
My mainstream OBGYN does not think that we need any HRT, and it's hard to adjust the dose during perimnenopause, I am 49. I read about estradiol gel that can be bought without Rx over the web), Estrogel from Europe. But then I must use dreaded progesteron and this is when my problems start. I also notived much better blood sugar readings while taking E but P downplays E and make me feel horrible: dizzy, sleepy, depressed, leg cramps, etc.
So I have deicded to wait and see if I can do without hormones for now, I don;t have hot flashes and migranes, just on and off achiness, chest pain and tightness of neck and upper back and premenstrual heartburn and indigestion.
I too agree that hormonal testing (both blood and sliva) are useless and too expensive, hormones fluctuate hourly. Hormones work, but it takes knowledge to make them work and make daily adjustments.
I also notived that eating a low carb diet helps, more fat in general and more satrated fat is converted into E and is great mood stabilizer too.
Regards,
Iradan

Hi, Iradan! I, too have noticed that a low carb diet helps. If I binge on carbs, I "use up" a lot of estrogen and always have to take more at 3 PM because I start getting the "tightness of the neck muscles", which is the start of a migraine with me. Since you are 49, you are darn close to menopause, so maybe you should find another gyn who specializes in bioidentical hormones before your symptoms get worse.

Estrone can convert into estradiol and vice-versa. Estrone does not cause cancer, but there is a type of "bad" estrone that women's bodies make that is thought to be cancer-causing called 16-hydroxy-estrone. I guess it is sort of like the bad and good cholesterols. You are supposed to be able to make less of the bad type of estrone if you eat things like broccoli. I hate all cooked greens, but I've just recently started eating raw broccoli with a low-cal dip, and it is OK. Progesterone is a necessary evil, but you can take as little as you can get by with and still have a period to clean out the uterus, and take it only every 2 or 3 months. Plus I recently found taking more estrogen on those days helps. The reason progesterone causes these symptoms is because it is an estrogen blocker. Dr. John Lee's theories of the progesterone cure-all have not proven to be true in clinical trials. I'm not saying that some women don't feel better with it, though, because everyone is an individual.

I guess you are talking about the French estrogel from the online pharmacy Masters Marketing. It should work as well as the most expensive compounded stuff, but I don't know if it is in some sort of pre-measured pump or not. Even if it is, the excess could be saved in a jar. You wouldn't have to use estrogen gel every day until your symptoms get worse, just when you feel bad. I have been thinking about having my endometrium ablated so I wouldn't have to take progesterone any more, but I have to study up on whether that is safe and effective.

As for the sublingual form of biest, the chart in Dr. Reiss' book showed that it was absorbed quicker than any other form, and the estrogen shot up very high, but then there was a quicker and steeper drop than with any other form. So if you took only the sublingual form, your dose might not last the full 12 hours. Also, some women respond with symptoms to quickly falling estrogen levels, not just deficiencies of estrogen. That is probably why young women, who are not estrogen deficient, suffer migraines pre-menstrually. It's because their estrogen is taking a sudden dive.

Hi 123,
I checked with the Medaus pharmacy and the biest 1.0 mg, 30ml (1 month supply) is $30.00. They said it varies a little depending on the strength, or if it is an odd amount that you are getting, but it is still only $5. or $10. difference.

Hope that helps. I have been having migraines everyday since I started my progesterone after the 14 days off. I am thinking I may have been better off not cycling it. I'll have to see how it goes for the rest of the the month.

Hi 123,
I agree that estrogen fluctuations is what causing all the nasty symptoms. Some days i feel fine but others (estrogen dips)- lousy, mostly due to achy and tight muscles and achy joints. I too figured that sublingual is not the best delivery system, but oral can cause blood clots and impacts lvier function - however, raises HDL; while transdermal (gel and patch) are know to elevated triglycerides.
I was thinking about ablation, but I don't have heavy periods so far, and as they say: don't fix it if it ain't broken.
My OBGYN does not even want to hear about HRT, she is post-meno herself and is strongly against hormones, especially Estrogen, both syntetic and bioidentical. I will switch insurance this summer, so may be I would find a gyno who will be willing to work with mewithout charging an arm and a leg. I am done paying out of pocket for private drs visits and compaunded hormones, this stuff can be purchased on line for the fraction of the price the pharmacy charged me.
As for using E during perimenopause, it's hard to adjust the dose, since my own E fluctuates widely, so I am simpyk adding more E on a top, and some days it makes too much of it. May be when my hormones hit the rock bottom, it will be easy to estimate the correct dosage.
Regards,
Iradan

Hi 123,
I too live by my estrogen. I had a partial hysterectomy 11 years ago so I can't take progesterone. I've tried but I became so depressed immediately afterwards that I know now not to take it. I do take Estrogen in sublingual tablets and I take 1.25 mg one in morning and one at night. Sometimes that isn't enough and I have to take 1 and 1/2 tablet in the morning on those very hectic days.

My estrogen takes away my anxiety, panic attacks, crying uncontrollably, insomnia, fuzzy thinking(losing my mind feeling) shaking internally and externally, leg pains, urinary urgency, loss of sex drive, headaches, etc.etc....With it I can live again.

I have also found out that if I eat Low Carb I feel pretty good. I get my prescription thru Bellevue Pharmacy and they have helped me so much. Several times I've had to call them and ask some questions and they've been so kind in answering me. Thanks for all your information because sometimes I feel alone in what I'm doing by tweeking my estrogen but the more I read on these sites the more I understand I am not alone.

Kat

Iridan, I think you are mistaken about the transdermal elevating triglycerides. I am quoting from this website:
http://www.project-aware.org/Managing/Hrt/estrogen.shtml
" Oral estrogen sometimes raises triglycerides (another type of blood fat) and women who have high triglyceride levels should be aware of this. Transdermal estrogen does not raise HDL and usually does not lower LDL cholesterol as much as oral estrogen, and it does not affect triglycerides, so it may be a better choice in women with elevated triglyceride levels." Menopausal female doctors who are dead-set against estrogen just don't have the terrible symptoms that we do. My sister is one of those lucky ones who never had any need for estrogen. She never had any cramps when she was young, either, and used to think I was faking the horrible labor-like pains I endured every month from age 12 to 19.

Hi, Kathi! You are certainly not alone. If I have to take estrogen the rest of my life, I will. All this talk about "as little as possible for as short a time as possible" makes it sound like estrogen will kill you, but I honestly think it would kill me not to take it. There is a case history in one of Dr. Elizabeth Vliet's books about a woman who had a heart attack and was in intensive care and the doctors had given up on her as she couldn't be stabilized. A relative contacted Dr. Vliet, who prescribed an estrogen patch, and the woman stabilized very quickly and left the hospital healthy. I get pains radiating down my left arm from the heart area when my estrogen has dipped very low, and I think I would be like that woman Dr. Vliet described without estrogen. It scares me to think that Wyeth and the FDA and the obstetrics and gynecology association is trying to prevent us from having bioidentical estrogen.

Hi 123,
I have to admit for the longest time I felt so guilty because I didn't go the "natural" route for menopause but my symptoms were so severe I could not live. I liteally could not function and it truly scared my family. I called my mother in GA and she rushed to live with me and help me until the drs figured out what was wrong. After she got here she talked to me all day and finally she said Honey, I believe you are going thru menopause so be sure your dr. takes all the necessary blood tests. Rest assured this Mother's Day she will get the biggest bouget of flowers I can find! Since I had a partial hysterectomy I knew all I needed was estrogen but I just needed to know what kind and how much and so the experimenting began.
Now I'm like you and I take as much estrogen as I need by sublingual form. I have 2 kids graduating in one weekend this month so I am now taking a little more to help me get thru. I also am on a low carb diet and I exercise faithfully now. I am trying to de-stress my life now and that has helped greatly!

How long will I be on estrogen? I will not mind being on them for the rest of my life. I can't live without them and I am not even going to try. Those two weeks my body crashed scared the living hell out of me and my family and to this day it still brings tears to my eyes. And to tell you the truth I keep rolling it around in my head about writing a book on what peri and menopause can do to women and what it did to me and how we need more doctors to become better educated on this. We are not losing our minds!

I replied quickly to sending in my petition against Wyeth and told them my story. I bet the company's run by a board of MALE members who have no idea what we go thru! And I just pray they do not win.

Kathy

Just wanted to give you an update on my situation. I went to see a neurologist and he did an MRI of my head. It was normal. He put me on an antidepressant that made me sick as heck from the first dose (can't remember the name) so he switched me to Topamax 25 mg once a day. Stayed on that for one week then increased to 2 x's a day this past Wednesday. No real relief yet with from this tension headache. I will have to the increase this medication gradually each week to get to 100 mg. according to the doctor - the the usual amount for tensions headaches. I switched my regular doctor as well - saw new internist last Saturday - my blood pressure was fine in her office 126/78. She did blood work and all was okay except the Glucose, fasting - mine was borderline it was 100 and Reference range is 65 - 99 mg/dl. I will get that checked into since diabetes is in my family on my mothers side. She did not check any hormones though because they fluctuate from day to day and I already knew from last October that I'm in perimenopause. I told the doctor I feel weak, tired I've lost 5 lbs - probably because I am so anxious that something was terribly wrong with me. She prescribed Tradazone 50 mg at night to help me sleep which I have not tried yet. I have never felt so bad before and don't know what else to attribute it to other than perimenopause. I'm planning on staring FemHRT this Sunday and hope that helps me feel better eventually if it is hormonal. I need some relief from feeling so horrible. I am not functioning well at this point and I have no quality of life at the moment. I just got married last August for the first time and I feel bad for my husband because I just cry and cry because I feel so bad all the time. My vision is distorted - I also had a complete eye exam and that came out fine - I did get glasses, especially for reading. I believe I have tinnitus (sound like crickets in my ears now) and I feel like my whole body is off balance. I don't know what other tests I can have done. I called my doctor today again and she suggested I see a therapist who can put me on medication. I know I'm depressed because of how I'm feeling - who wouldn't be. I just want to feel better, I want to be able to exercise and to out a bit like I used to. This is not fun at all and I just pray to God for relief every day and to point me in the right direction to do the right things. Just wanted to share this with you.
Karen

I went the same route, Kar,---having multiple medical tests, all being negative, and then discovering on my own that all my symptoms were due to estrogen deficiency. I also took Prozac, but it didn't stop the migraines at all. Topamax is an anti-seizure drug being used to prevent migraines, but I wouldn't take it because it has so many serious side effects. Besides, as long as you have estrogen deficiency (amd the headaches), you are going to have all your other symptoms, too, and need drugs for insomnia, depression, anxiety, etc. Once you get your right dose of estrogen, you probably won't need any drugs. I don't use anything but my bioidentical hormones, and I am 60. You should Google "Topamax side effects" before taking any more and see if you think it is worth it.

I didn't have distorted vision, but that does occur with some types of migraine called "classic". Also, this is the age where we all get far-sighted and need reading glasses. I did have horrible depression and anxiety, like I was sitting in the bottom of a well with my ears ringing. That all cleared up within minutes of estrogen absorption.

Getting the right dose of natural estrogen will stop your "tension headaches", which are really migraines. They may feel like tension headaches when they are less severe because then it seems like the pain is in your upper back and neck muscles. But in an article on MedScape entitled "Migraine Headache Misconceptions", it says: "The notion of recurrent, incapacitating tension or sinus headache affecting large numbers of individuals is not supported by published evidence or clinical experience. Furthermore, improper diagnosis leads to inappropriate drug therapy, increased risk of adverse effects, as well as patient and clinician frustration from failed therapy. To avoid these pitfalls, we propose pharmacists adopt a philosophy that any patient presenting with episodic, debilitating headaches be considered to have migraine until and unless appropriate evaluation proves otherwise."

FemHRT is a combination ethinyl estradiol and progestin (meaning fake progesterone) drug. Besides the fact that you can't adjust the dose yourself, the progestin is norethindrone acetate. It is really the progestin in PremPro which caused the increased incidence of cancer and heart disease, something which the media blamed on "estrogen", because they didn't bother to read the actual studies. FemHRT has a progestin which is different than Provera, but it is still a fake hormone drug. And progestins are often the cause of a lot of the nuisance-type symptoms like bloat, pimples, increased hunger, etc. It might work well for you, but I would take this drug for no more than a year while trying to find a doctor who would work with me on prescribing bioidentical hormones which can be adjusted as needed by YOU.

Be very careful with the Topamax in regards to eating. My dd was prescribed this ( for a condition it turned out she didn't have) and she ended up losing 60 lbs on it. It made her not want to eat at all. She said it really distorted her thinking when it came to food.

123,
You seem like you understand BHRT so well. I wonder if you would know why I did not get a period after using just the biest for 14 days, and then both progesterone and biest for the next 14 days. When should I have gotten a period, at the end of the 2nd 14 days, right? Maybe I was not using enough estrogen during the 1st 14 days? Or enough progesterone during the 2nd 14 days? Any thoughts would be appreciated.

I am really new to this and still have some of the menopausal symptoms, but I am doing better then without it. I just upped my biest dose starting the new month in hopes that will help. Thank you again.

Kalmar, if you are not using enough estrogen to build up the endometrium, you won't have a period every month after using progesterone. Having a period is not necessary in order to prevent endometrial cancer, just taking the progesterone. Since you are still having symptoms, you need to increase your estrogen dose, and when you do, you will probably find that you start to have periods again. A couple of times I did decrease my progesterone dose too far (because I hate it so much), and then I did not get a good bleed, but just some sporadic spotting. But in your case, I would increase the estrogen first before messing with the progesterone.

I can't find a doctor locally who can work with me to give me bioidentical hormones. I'm still searching. Everyone thinks I'm depressed, which I am because I've feel so bad for so long. My doctor wants me on antidepressants on top of everything. Pray that I find some relief soon cause I'm suffering terribly - can barely go to work right now and I'm crying daily. Every doctor I talk too is not into the bioidentical hormone treatment thing- they think they have just as many side effects as the synthetic hormones. I tell you this is so confusing to me. Thanks.

Thanks 123!

Power Surge provides the resources for you to FIND A DOCTOR who will work with you and bioidentical hormones.

This board is only one small part of an enormous site with a wealth of information. Go to the following links to locate a health care practitioner who works with and prescribes bioidenticals:

• About Your Hormones
• Bioidentical Hormones Individualized To Fit Your Needs
• Ask Power Surge's Pharmaceutical, Menopause and Hormone Consultant (for 11 years), Pete Hueseman, R.Ph, P.D.

You can also [email=consultph@bpharmacysolutions.com?Subject=From A Power Surge Visitor] E.mail Pete Hueseman directly[/email]

In addition, I recommend reading Pete's transcripts - click here for the last one. At the bottom of the transcripts, you'll find links to his other transcripts. Over the years, he's helped thousands of women in Power Surge and has probably answered in his transcripts every question you have about bioidenticals.

Best of luck!
Dearest

I checked into the natural estrogen and was told that if I'm still getting my period that I can't just take estrogen alone - I still need progestin. I was still getting my period pretty regularly - my last one was April 14th. I know the side effects of Topamax - when they give you the medication, they give you the insert with the pamphlet with the side effects. Gosh this is so confusing. I went to an Otologist yesterday to have my hearing checked because along with this headache thing I also developed tinnitus too and it's been driving me crazy. Did you say you experienced this as well? How long have you been using the estrogen? Did you use it with progestin as well at first? Thanks. Karen

Kar, I don't know how long you've been experiencing severe perimenopausal symptoms, but I've had tinnitus since elementary school age. When I began having severe peri symptoms my tinnitus became louder and the noise changed. I went to the ENT doctor and had all type of hearing exams and tests done and everything came out okay except for very slight hearing loss in my right ear (I think this is from many ear infections from my youth). Anyway, I'm beginnig to ramble ...What I am trying to say is that after awhile this symptom subsided...in my case it returned back to the ear noise that I've been accustom to hearing from my childhood.

Reading your posts reminded me so much of what I've been through over the last 4 years and I just wanted to let you know that it does get better. Be encouraged . I'm a firm believer in being proactive concerning my health and definitely being my own advocate. I found relief by using compounded progesterone along with several vitamins and supplements.

Oh, I also had the vision thingy...it's also one of the first symptoms to arrive. I remember that I kept cleaning my glasses, rinsing my eyes, and even going to two eye doctors who both found my vision to be great. I noticed improvement with that blurry, distorted, glazed over vision after awhile of trying various things (hormones, vitamins, supplements, prescription medication).

I hope that you find relief soon.

God Bless

The severe symptoms started 6 weeks ago (the tension headache and tinniuts) the day my period started on April 14th. I haven't had another period since. I do feel like I'm going to have it as I have other symptoms indicating that I am but nothing yet. I called the Oregon Tinnitus and Hyperacusis Treatment Clinic. I got the information from another web site in their list of 35 symptoms of menopause. I spoke with the clinical director Marsha Johnson just yesterday and she was a very kind wonderful woman and made a suggestion for me to go to Radio Shack and buy a table top sound maker - she said to surround myself with sound all day - 24/7 to see if that helped. I need to retrain my brain. She thinks my raging hormones are doing this. I've already had a CAT scan and an MRI. I'm seeing a neurologist for a tension headache that won't quit. So, I'm trying it. The sound makers were only about $9.00 a piece. Hey, I'll do anything to try and settle this down. There are places to go for Tinnitus Retraining Therapy but I'm not sure if it's okay to post the site here. I hope the sound maker from Radio Shack helps this terrible sound in my ears - I thought I was losing my mind. My hearing, etc. checked our perfectly yesterday. As a matter of fact the doctor told me he would pass the information on about the sound maker to his other patients. When did your tinnitus get better - although you've had yours for a long time. I pray every day for relief from this hormonal hell. I don't sleep either and I was given sleep medication from a psychiatrist - well, it made me like a zombie and I will never take that again. I called her and told her so. I'm extremely sensitive to medication. I need to sleep however. It not the tinnitus that's keeping me awake as I've had the sleeping problem for awhile now - I'm so tired of all this and I need a break so, if you pray, please include me in your prayers and you are in mine. Thanks for taking the time to read and respond. Karen

Hey, Kar! I used to live in Oregon. Anyway, it is not true that you have to have progestin along with estrogen if you are still having periods. You could just add an estrogen patch on the days that your estrogen is dipping low, like the week before a period. You are still producing progesterone; your estrogen is just low. But if your doctor won't give you natural estrogen, maybe you could get a prescription for the bc pill. I took it from age 46 to 50 and felt fine, except for the week off the pill. (Fourteen years ago, they weren't allowing women to take the pill for months without stopping.) I know the pill is not bioidentical, but it would at least stop your symptoms if you got a high estrogen to progestin ratio pill like Ortho Cyclen or Ovcon 35. You should take it all the time, and just have 3 or 4 periods a year because otherwise you would be sick on the week off the pill every month. Seasonale is marketed for the purpose of taking the bc pill for a whole season (3 months), but it has a troublesome progestin for those who are prone to acne. The other bc pills can be used the same way as Seasonale, but you'd just need more than a pack to last a month. What is your age? As long as you don't smoke & are otherwise healthy, you can use the bc pill up to age 50.

I remember going to the neurologist for my non-stop migraine, which began as soon as I quit the bc pill on my 50th birthday. After the MRA, he wanted to put me on a beta blocker or calcium blocker, but I said no because of the side effects. He gave me some Demerol tablets, but they didn't touch my hormonal migraine, nor did my usual Imitrex. I was desperate for help because I also had what is called "exertional migraine" which occured whenever I exercised. This was really ruining my sex life! The only thing that worked is estrogen.

Kar,
My doctor didn't understand anything about bioidenticals except the Climera or Vivelle dot and that was only after I told him about it. Before that he just wanted to push Lexapro. Most doctors will just prescribe anti-dep. because they don't know what else to do and this is what they've been doing for years. I read a newsline last week that Lexapro sales were up over 12.1 billion last year. Go figure-can it be that women have finally had enough of suffering and want relief?! Anyway, I knew in my heart I am not a depressed person even though I was crying uncontrollably. So I had a long talk with my doc and asked for copies of my blood test so I could find someone that could help me and I faxed those tests to Pete. They interpreted those tests and made their recommendations after also reviewing my history and then back to my dr. I went with those recommendations and since my dr. wanted to see me get help, he signed the prescription. If you can't find a dr in your area then I would call Pete and try that route. But truthfully I was also willing to travel the country to find a dr. that could help me. I am on estrogen now and do not take progest.because I do not have a uterus. I still have some days that I don't feel quite well but those days are nothing compared to the way I was. My eyesight also began giving me problems and menopause seemed to push me further into going for glasses. So just remember this will pass and you will begin to feel better!

kat42

Kat42,
Thanks for responding. I spoke with Pete last night and he is going to email me his recommendations. Do you know if there is any specific topics here where women claim he has helped them? I'd like some reassurance. I am on Femhrt now - just started it 10 days ago and started the Lexapro last Saturday. I hope I feel better soon. If you know of the area in this web site where they specifically state that Pete has helped them, please direct me to it. Thanks. Karen

I've stumbled across some replys where he has helped several women. I got a lot of the info from his articles that they have on this site too. Alot of times I will talk to Janna at Bellevue when she is available or even email her with questions. Just listen to your heart and only you know if you're getting better or not and this road may not be for you but that's the great thing about this site-you can find so many suggestions and it truly is a hit and miss for all of us. I hope they can help you like they've helped me but if not please continue to search. I just decided for myself that I could not live like I was and I was not going to give up until I found what was going to work for me. Keep me posted on how you do!

kat42

Kar,
Look under Bioidentical, Natural Hormones-BHRT.

There are some women posting on that site discussing Bellevue and if it's helped them or not.

You are so right about taking what is useful and leaving the rest. It amazes me how different we all are. The only time I didn't get headaches was when I used the progesterone cream (or Prometrium, depending on whether I was using estrogen or not).

I was on the bioidenticals for a couple of years, but tried going off of them and found no difference in how I felt, other than I had more night sweats (but none in the day, thank God).

I'm near the "end" of it, I think, being 51 and having been in peri for 9 years.

I think Dr. Reiss' book is a good one for many women, but the natural hormones really didn't pan out in my case.

My sister was like you--quit taking hormones cold turkey and didn't notice the difference. Some women's ovaries may make enough estrogen even after menopause to keep them symptomless. Others gain fat (a little or a lot) that makes enough estrogen to get by. Estrogen is used in over 400 different body processes, so it seems like a woman would miss it! I am 60 and still need it desperately. I did read in one book called "Sex, Lies, & Menopause" that progesterone, being an estrogen blocker, burns out the estrogen receptors over time if taken daily. So maybe it eventually does away with that intense need for estrogen. That seems like it would be a good thing, but the book says it isn't. They say as long as you can fool the body into thinking it is young enough to reproduce, you delay getting all the old age diseases. I don't know if that is true or not.

Oooh, no, I had TREMENDOUS symptoms, which is why I went on natural estrogen in the first place. I began hot flashes when I was 42 (and night sweats, and crying jags, and anger problems, and irregular periods). And Progest cream took the majority of symptoms away for about 6-7 years.

I went on the estrogen as I got closer to meno to help with migraines (and other symptoms) that began developing daily, in spite of my beloved progesterone. My doctor assured me it was due to my extremely low estrogen levels (post-menopausal levels, yet still having periods) so she put me (originally) on a bioidentical patch. The patch DID help the return of the night sweats, but really never helped with the headaches (though I initially thought it did). Then I went to the compounded stuff. Finally (after a few years), I stopped using it and found that the amount headaches were no different either way. Nor were my mood swings/depression. I do get a few more hot flashes without the estrogen, but really don't care.

Unfortunately, I have no "fat" making any estrogen for me; I'm really thin.

I would love, however, to have my sex drive back like when I was full of estrogen! (Some say it is testosterone that is the hormone of "desire," but that didn't work for me either! Every doctor says something different, anyway.)

I just think every single one of us is d-i-f-f-e-r-e-n-t! I have friends for whom herbs, etc. work great. Others need their Premarin (ugh). Etc., etc.

There are no absolute solutions. Period.

P.S. I also do not believe for a minute that you can "fool" the body into thinking it is younger with continuing youthful estrogen levels. One thing science has pretty well documented is that even our very own, naturally produced estrogen is linked to breast cancer. That is why women who menstruate longer (start earlier and stop later) have a statistically significant higher rate of breast cancer. But I wish we could fool Mother Nature, that's for sure.

Actually, the book, "Sex, Lies, & Menopause" goes into the "evidence" that our own estrogen results in significantly higher rates of breast cancer and debunks it. I was shocked when I read what the original study that this belief is built on actually said. It is very similar to what is happening today with the recent "evidence" that "estrogen causes cancer". That is not what the study actually showed at all! The study actually showed that horse estrogen combined with a fake progestin (Provera) resulted in a very slight increase in breast cancer. Most doctors practice medicine today on handed-down, hearsay evidence. The news media didn't read the study, and I suspect less than 1% of doctors actually read the study. I have been learning lately that truth usually lies in the opposite direction of the "conventional wisdom". For anybody who can think outside the box, I recommend this book. I won't go into the old study, but just say that in our grandmother's time, only 1 out of 28 women got breast cancer, and they had multiple pregnancies, a time when estrogen soars 10X. Even today, the more completed pregnancies a woman has, and the earlier she gets pregnant, the less breast cancer.

Also of interest concerning the "danger" of our own natural hormones: In the May 15, 2001 Journal of the National Cancer Institute, a study called "Hormone Replacement Therapy After a Diagnosis of Breast Cancer in Relation to Recurrence and Mortality", it was reported that: "The rate of breast cancer recurrence was 17 per 1000 person-years in women who used HRT after diagnosis and 30 per 1000 person-years in non-users. Breast cancer mortality rates were 5 per 1000 person-years in HRT users and 15 per 1000 person-years in non-users." In other words, over the long run, the non-HRT users had twice the recurrence rate and three times the death rate. And that is with the bad stuff---Premarin or horse urine. How much better would they have done with topical estradiol?

In another study from Journal of the National Cancer Institute called "Effect of Long-Term Estrogen Deprivation on Apoptotic Reponses of Breast Cancer Cells to 17-beta Estradiol", it was found that high concentrations of natural estradiol in vitro resulted in a 60% reduction in the growth of breast cancer cells and a sevenfold increase in cell death. This study was done at National Institute of Health. Why don't we ever hear about this? Why are women instead given hysterectomies and estrogen blocking drugs? After menopause, women who don't take HRT have less estrogen than men, yet after menopause is the time when breast cancer is most prevalent.

Women who have multiple pregnancies are more likely to breastfeed and this in itself is believed to decrease breast cancer risk, and guess what? Breastfeeding lowers estrogen levels.

I have read study after study as I've been researching this subject for nine years. However, the prevailing theory (and it was the subject of a recent paper submitted to the journals by Duke University, near where I live) on why more pregnancies seem to have a preventive effect on breast cancers was due to the extraordinarily high levels of progesterone--it appears to protect against the estrogen.

In addition, most of the increased estrogen is estriol, which is also considered by some to be protective.

I personally think our grandmothers were protected NOT by many pregnancies (which cause other problems, by the way), but by not having their environment/food supply loaded with toxic chemicals.

My point is not to argue studies. One study will always cancel out the next, and so it goes. My point is that women will not be "cured of everything by estrogen," as the title of this thread states.

More and more evidence really points to our diets (lots of vegetables, fruits--especially the chemical in strawberries-- etc.) as being the best way to prevent about every disease (not to mention eating organic as much as possible and avoiding pesticides and other chemicals, etc., etc.).

My experience is that though you might eliminate some menopausal symptoms with estrogen replacement, most of my symptoms, like migraines (ugh!) were not helped in the least by estrogen, nor was my depression, nor sex drive nor anything else. And it put weight ON me, not lost it for me, as another thread claims.

My gynecologist (from Duke) was very pro estrogen. After the studies, however, she told me she did not want me to use it. I ignored her and got the naturals from another gyn. Then I finally "reality" tested whether it was helping me or not and went off. While I admit I did not feel a whole lot better, I definitely didn't feel any worse. And I saved a TON of money, LOL!

Since it works for you, I say good luck. But women need to be very leary of cure-alls.
.