Anyone concerned about the new report on calciumand vitamin D being not as affective as we have been told? I found this to be very discouraging. I am planning to continue taking it, but isn't it upsetting to be told and told to do something and then hear about a study that says it is not that good! What are the drug companies doing to society, or are we just being dumb for not listening? Dor

Yes, this is a concern! As you say, we are told for years to take calcium supplements, and then on the basis of a study, everything changes. Weren't studies done prior, to ensure there was a REASON to take these supplements?

Just a repeat of what happened with HRT some years ago.

Makes you wonder what's real.... <_<

JJ

I don't believe the study. When the study came on echincea it said the same thing and I found that the person in charge of that study works for a university but does some consulting or something like for a drug company. I think that all the studies have been coming out lately have been secretly fostered by drugs companies. For example I know echincea works ...

It's amazing the power of the drug companies...
-all these herbals that have worked for generations for women all over the world are not safe. Here, take this pill instead
-soy products have not been proven effective...take this pill instead
-compounded bios are not safe---take this pill instead

We are dealing with similar problems in our workplace...
two people have died in the last five years due to industrial mixer accidents, now we MUST have guards and speed-inhibiters on our electric mixer in the kitchen. It is impossible to add ingredients while the mixer is running, and it cuts out if the load is too heavy. (making it impossible to mix pizza dough!)
We'll probably have more accidents from people "adjusting" the safety features on the machines out of frustration.

If it isn't broken, don't fix it. If it's worked for thousands of years, please do not legislate it into the realm of the illegal.
It would be better if the government spent more time listening to the people who actually hired them than the people who paid for favours to get them in.
It's been said here before, we know our own bodies best, we have to live with them daily. If the DOCTORS would just listen to us, they might be able to learn something that would help them deal with the next patient, the next generation!

I take most studies with a grain of salt until something has been proven by multiple studies with reproducible results! If you try to live your life jumping on the band wagon with every new report that something must be added right now to have good health, you will drive yourself crazy ditching everything when a study comes out refuting it a few years later. Unfortunately a lot of scientific research is done with too small a sample, not enough control on the variables, for too short a period to know the final results over time. Use common sense, add or remove something if it will fit in your lifestyle without making you miserable over it, and don't go gung-ho on anything until you have solid proof it is safe.

agree with that.. i remember some years ago when 'they' said eating oranges contributed to causing cancers.. sigh.....

ZEN !!!!!!!!! Diagonally parked in a parallel universe - BRILLIANT!!!!!!

Julie x

I've gone through a number of disappointments with treatment for osteoporosis. In 1982 my doc put me on estrogen replacement therapy and said it will take care of my bones. For 25 years I thought I was 'taking care of my bones'. My present doctor says estrogen does nothing for the bones, but progesterone is the hormone of choice. Now I'm using a compounded hormone cream, 40 mgs progesterone and 3 mgs testosterone. A bone scan will be done in about a year or so to see how effective this treatment is. The calcium supplement is believable. Our bodies are able to absorb only small amounts of calcium at any given time. The best source of calcium is food . . . mainly leafy green veggies (romaine lettuce, spinach, broccoli, etc). Most of the calcium supplements go out through our kidneys and are excreted. Along the way, they can also cause kidney stones. It is far better to eat foods that are naturally high in calcium, get out in the sunshine for a few minutes each day to absorb the Vitamin D. Exercise regualry, (weight bearing) and keep up with the hormonal changes in our bodies as we age. Dr. John Lee began the research on progesterone in regard to osteoporosis. Since his death, others are continuing the research. I am living proof that estrogen alone will not help the bones. I'm sure my doctor from years ago did what he knew at the time, but there is more and more evidence that we need all the natural hormones that are normally produced by our bodies . . . estrogen, progesterone, testosterone. We need it all. I no longer use estrogen because I'm past menopause and no longer suffering from hot flashes. Hope this info is helpful.

Blessings,
Joybelle

I've always doubted the calcium craze. Calcium that is not absorbed will go into the joints, arteries, etc.

Anyway, I think my bones are so strong because I lift weights. Women who do a lot of weight-bearing physical activity generally have much stronger bones. The muscle pushes on the bones and causes osteoblasts (this is bone building, osteoclasts is when the bones break down).

I try to get most of my vitamins from my food. This refined stuff is a bunch of garbage. I agree with the other posters that say that some in the government are trying to take the natural healthy stuff away from us and give refined garbage from a lab in its place. No wonder we have rising cancer and diabetes rates, let alone osteoporoses.

This is my first time on this site. I am 56 and diagnosed w/osteoporosis last year. I was just told to take calcium and exercise, which I have been doing. Then my regular dr prescribed Fosamax, which I have been taking for about a month, with no side effects yet, but I am concerned about some studies saying the bone it builds is weak and also some jaw issues. I just went to the gyn this week and she said to up my intake of calcium to 1600 mg a day and 1000 mg of vit D, which is more than the 1200/400 I was told before. She said it was a new study. Now I read here that calcium isn't all its cracked up to be? Has anyone heard of this study saying 1600 mg? If more is just a waste and actually causes other problems, what to do?? Thanks for listening. This site is awsome!

lilyanna

From everyhting I have read, magnesium is far more important than calcium in preventing osteoporosis in menopausal women. As logn as women are getting at least 500 mg a day of Ca, easy if you use dairy products, there does not appear to be any real benefit to Ca supplementation.I have supplied some info on thsi below.

Marie



Here is the abstract of a paper on this:

The complete paper is at : http://www.mgwater.com/gaosteo.shtml

Data are presented which support the theory that most cases of primary postmenopausal osteoporosis (PPMO) are not caused by calcium deficiency. The commonly applied therapy of continuous supplementation solely with large doses of calcium is unlikely, therefore, to be of help. It is furthermore suggested that magnesium deficiency has a significant role in PPMO: magnesium is involved in calcium metabolism and in the synthesis of vitamin D, and in maintaining bone integrity. The results of a clinical evaluation of a dietary programme involving magnesium supplementation are also presented.


* * * * * * *

More on the importance of Mg from : from http://www.naturalmedicine.co.za/sajnm_mai...030724105453400

There can be no doubt that calcium is an important bone mineral. Generations of doctors have taught the public that calcium supplementation and drinking liberal quantities of cow’s milk is the way to prevent and treat osteoporosis. Decades-long intensive public relations campaigns to promote the consumption of dairy products have convinced millions, including many doctors, that calcium bestows perfect bone health upon women and growing children. We do have firm evidence that bone loss is accelerated if calcium intake is lower than approximately 500 mg/day, which clearly establishes calcium as one of the vital bone-forming minerals. What is less certain is whether increasing calcium intake to well above this level will on its own effectively prevent or retard bone loss.

Calcium – the vital bone-forming mineral

More and more enquiring minds are, however, beginning to question whether this is true. There are those who ask why, after so many years of massive calcium supplementation, both the total incidence and age-specific incidence of osteoporosis are sharply on the increase1 At the present time osteoporosis affects more than 20 million Americans, leading annually to 1.5 million bone fractures which are responsible for much suffering, loss of life and huge costs (in excess of $3.5 billion annually). There are also those who point out that osteoporosis is more prevalent in Western countries (where the intake of dairy products and calcium is high) than in countries where vegan-type diets are common and calcium intake more modest2 ln some of these areas the staple plant foods contain much more magnesium than calcium.3 No experimental evidence has ever demonstrated clearly that high doses of calcium, taken over the long term, can prevent osteoporosis. Experts point out that this question offers considerable scope for dispute4 and that while some research papers indicate some advantage of calcium supplementation,5 a very impressive body of evidence does not support the use of calcium supplements, leading to the conclusion that calcium supplementation is not justified6 in conjunction with the Western diet.


Calcium-magnesium ratio

Of all the skeleton-supporting factors, the calcium-magnesium ratio is perhaps the most critical. At the same time it illustrates the interdependence of nutrients and the principle of nutrient synergism in a very convincing manner. When blood magnesium levels decline, the kidneys readjust the calcium-magnesium ratio by excreting more calcium, and vice versa when magnesium levels rise. Therefore supplementation with magnesium is one way of improving calcium retention.9 Supplementation with magnesium (even high levels) does not suppress calcium absorption.10 For preventing and possibly reversing osteoporosis, magnesium may be even more important than calcium.11 One of the reasons could be that it is more often deficient in the Western diet than calcium. In one study, magnesium supplements (without calcium) were given to postmenopausal women with signs of progressing osteoporosis. After 2 years, there was either an increase in bone density or an arrest of further bone loss in 87% of the patients.11


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finally,

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/fish.../magnesium.html



"This is my first time on this site. I am 56 and diagnosed w/osteoporosis last year. I was just told to take calcium and exercise, which I have been doing. Then my regular dr prescribed Fosamax, which I have been taking for about a month, with no side effects yet, but I am concerned about some studies saying the bone it builds is weak and also some jaw issues. I just went to the gyn this week and she said to up my intake of calcium to 1600 mg a day and 1000 mg of vit D, which is more than the 1200/400 I was told before. She said it was a new study. Now I read here that calcium isn't all its cracked up to be? Has anyone heard of this study saying 1600 mg? If more is just a waste and actually causes other problems, what to do?? Thanks for listening. This site is awsome!"
[/quote]

I think calcium supplements are all hyped up. For once, I think it indeed takes vitamin D and magensium for the calcium to be absorbed. it also take E for the calcium to be deposited into the bones, and not ended up in coronary artheries (calcification), joints and muscles!
Calcium from the pill is poorly abosrbed, much better and yummier: plain full fat yougurt and kefir (calcium lactate+magensium+vit.D) and good quality cheese (even more benefits +CLA). We can get plenty of calcium from food: salmon and sardines with bones, leafy greens, broth made with bone (slowly simmered), lot of sunshine and vit.D, and good old weight bearing/bone stressing exercise. Not trying to lose weight and be too thin at menopause and beyond helps to keep bones thicker too.
I stopped taking calcium supplements, they make my muscles and joints ache. I just eat plenty of lactofermented dairy and othet yummy food, to make sure I get my 1500 mg calcium daily. I also try to get as much sun exposure as the weather permits, eat lots of oily fish and cod liver.
JMO

There are lots of things as important as calcium. Weight-bearing exercise, obviously, and many other nutrients, like boron.

But something I have been reading lately is that excess calcium will cause a lot of other problems. Americans are on a calcium craze and these supplements are just too much, considering most Americans love their cheese and dairy.

Excess calcium will be stored in joints (not a good thing) and also the arteries.

I do not take calcium supplements, ever. I already know I consume enough, with low-fat dairy and calcium-rich vegetables. Of course, my doctor (I got rid of her) preached calcium supplements, but doctors rarely know what they are talking about, in my experience.

Wow! Thanks terribletoodle and the rest of you for all the info. It kind of makes my head spin. I've never been one to really monitor what goes into my body, but I guess now is the time to start. I will check on getting enough magnesium and maybe scale down the calcium supplements and eat more calcium rich foods instead. I'd be happy to live on cheese but then I'm sure I'd gain more than the 25 lbs I have since I started this whole menopause merry-go-round! Thanks for caring!

This is an excellent discussion! I just threw out my calcium last week, have been very influenced by the writings of Nina Planck
( author of Real Food ( here is a link to her web page discussion of her book)

http://www.ninaplanck.com/index.php?page=real_food_book

as well as Michael Pollan, author of [u]Omnivore's Dilemma.[/u].....the New York Times recently had a long article by him....and I love the beginning of the article..." Eat food. Not too much. Mostly plants>" ( NYT, January 28, 2007).

We are now eating completely differently at our house. No more convenience foods. I even make my own salad dressing...no more stuff with high fructose corn syrup. Whole organic milk. Only olive oil or butter. Lots of weight-bearing exercise. And, I get about 30 minutes of sun a day, and am taking hormones, low-dose bc pills.

Ex-urbanite, that is awesome that you make your own salad dressing. I'll bet store dressing tasts horrible to you now. I take it "Real Food" is about getting rid of junk and eating nutritious foods. Now there's a book I want to buy !! Does it detail which foods are rich in certain nutrients ? I will follow the link ....

Just read the info at the link .... I so agree !! Butter and eggs have been harshly criticized for years, but they are not bad foods !

There's a special edition of Scientific American on newsstands (or was a few weeks ago) about eating and health. In it is an article about fats in diets which is very interesting. On Crete, the typical diet is 40% fat, most of it from olive oil and fish. In Japan the typical diet is only 10% fat. And yet the Japanese have a higher incidence of heart disease.

Btw, there is also a GREAT article about the false claims about obesity, that the actual data shows that obesity is not causing the kinds of health problems that is claimed. In fact, the data shows that overweight people tend to live longer than even "normal" weight people.

What is really going on, asserts Oliver, a political scientist at the University of Chicago, is that "a relatively small group of scientists and doctors, many directly funded by the weight-loss industry, have created an arbitrary and unscientific definition of overweight and obesity. They have inflated claims and distorted statistics on the consequences of our growing weights, and they have largely ignored the complicated health realities associated with being fat."
:
:
Oliver points to a new and unusually thorough analysis of three large, nationally representative surveys, for example, that found only a very slight--and statistically insignificant--increase in mortality among mildly obese people, as compared with those in the "healthy weight" category, after subtracting the effects of age, race, sex, smoking and alcohol consumption. The three surveys--medical measurements collected in the early 1970s, late 1970s and early 1990s, with subjects matched against death registries nine to 19 years later--indicate that it is much more likely that U.S. adults who fall in the overweight category have a lower risk of premature death than do those of so-called healthy weight. The overweight segment of the "epidemic of overweight and obesity" is more likely reducing death rates than boosting them. "The majority of Americans who weigh too much are in this category," Campos notes.
:
:
Counterintuitively, "underweight, even though it occurs in only a tiny fraction of the population, is actually associated with more excess deaths than class I obesity," says Katherine M. Flegal, a senior research scientist at the CDC. Flegal led the study, which appeared in the Journal of the American Medical Association on April 20 after undergoing four months of scrutiny by internal reviewers at the CDC and the National Cancer Institute and additional peer review by the journal.

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=sa...E1583414B7F0000

I haven't seen the new report is it a US report, I'm over here in the UK.

It is so difficult to know what studies to believe. I do know one thing for sure that you can't beat homegrown veggies and produce. When my daughter were little I had a veggie plot at the bottom of our garden. I grew potatoes, green beans, onions, raspberries, strawberries etc. Greenhouse was full of tomatoes. Then when I returned to work I stopped growing stuff. Faced with a ton of expensive fruit and veggies in the supermarket I am seriously thinking this year is as good a year as any to go organic again and grow my own.

I have been taking a Calcium/Magnesium combo for several months now after my body just crashed a couple of years ago and since I don't have a huge appetite its probably a good idea for me.

robin

My daughter who still lives at home became a vegetarian last summer, so I was forced to start really studying nutrition, as she is an athlete. ( I still eat organic meat, about once a week). Nina Planck talks all about what foods are good for you. The Pollan book is a more philosophical one, though he does also say what is best to eat...The only thing I cannot seem to totally give up is sugar, though Planck says to just cut back....
I will be putting in a big garden this year, cannot wait...
As for the salad dressing, we had really grown tired of regular dressing, so were ready for a change....
Both of these books say that if we would all eat as our great grandparents did, we would be much better off..
I even threw out my mayo, as I have an old cookbook, and would make my own, if I really need it. The Planck book also talks about oils, and I was surprised to find that vegetable oil is not good for you..

Back to Osteoporosis...I really think that exercise is so very important, especially weight training...
my sister who has ostopenia never lifted weights until recently. I have been lifting since I was 42, am 52 now.
My ob-gyn was annoyed at me when I recently refused to have a bone scan...( I will be switching next year to a diff dr.)
I told her that I do weight training, get plenty of calcium in my food, and am on hormones, AND that I would never take Fosamax!

In the olden days, women mostly did lots of hard physical labor, just in taking care of a home, kids, food....and most people walked everywhere, and got moderate amounts of sun....now we must make a real effort to add these things into our lives.....

ex-urbanite

I grew up in a rural farming area, I cycled everywhere when I was younger. I loved sport at school. Hockey in the winter, tennis in the summer.

I powerwalk now (not Olympic standard but enough to make me feel good). You have reminded me that I should add some weight bearing excercise too. I have a weak spot in my back which will only get weaker if I don't strengthen it. My daughters (16 and 18) and I have said that we will do the local Race for Life in June. So I have an incentive to aim for and basically then I won't be the poor old dear (I'm 46) struggling at the back.

I'll google Nina Planck

robin

Robin, powerwalking is great!! I should try that.
For weights, you can also use resistance bands. I go to two classes a week, Body Sculpt and Fit Ball. Both with a super positive teacher, who is in her early 50's and SO inspiring and positive. Though the class has a real mix of ages, young and older... we do cardio warm-up, then weights, then stretching......those classes are the highlight of my week.

Can anyone tell me how/where I can get fermented soy, which I think is miso or tamari? I had just worked up the nerve to cook tofu for my daughter, when lo and behold, Nina Planck said that it is better to stick with fermented soy, as it is more natural, not factory made,and fermented is easier to digest. Does anyone know how I can serve these foods?
I also got some of the books which she cited.... ( Nourishing Traditions by Sally Fallon was at my library)but must say, I am drawing the line at sauerkraut.....

Ex-urbanite,
I do the same: no processed food except good quality cheese, and I make my own salad dressings, it take 3 minutes, LOL. I eat food, and don't take any supplements, and feel rather better than when I used to take handfulls a day and still ate good food. Olive oil, butter, extra virgin coconut oil, sunbathing, whole milk plain yougurt and never low fat variety of dairy, vitamin D is fat soluble, so it does not get absorbed from non-fat and low fat dairy. I also make delicious broth from good organic bones (slowly simmered) with addition of vinegar to extract more minerals. Fish with bones, including fish soups, yum. Oh, and exercise makes huge difference, I agree, weight lifting, walks, whatever you can fit into your day.
Best,
I.

Thanks for the idea of adding vinegar to the bones....will have to start making some broth, and see if I can get my vegetarian dau to eat it....
I have not yet added in the coconut oil, but plan to try that, too. What do you use it in??Yes to cheese and whole milk yogurt!! One of my friends was so shocked when she learned that I made macaroni and cheese the old way ( with butter, milk and cheese.(.....

I have read that slightly overweight older people can have a longevity advantage. But the longest living people, Japanese and Okinawans, are rarely overweight. So I really think being overweight to any significant degree is technically at least a bit unhealthy.

Thanks, Dor!

thanks, terribletoodle