Hi all, I have a question to pose for all of you.. While you have been going through the perimenopausal/menopausal changes, have you found yourself to be reevaluating all of your friendships with people? Have you found yourself to be less tolerant of mindless lunacy (translation: toxic behavior), and more willing to let go of people you have known for hugely long periods of time, despite your history with the person? The reason why I am asking this is because I have been doing this for the last 3 1/2 years. Under normal circumstances, or BP (before perimenopause), I was the loyal, ever tolerant friend, able to shrug off (stupidly shrug off) asinine comments, competitive behavior and b*tch*ness with nary a word on my part. My mind set was that everyone had issues and that I accepted people for who they were, warts and all. And so I remained the ever loyal friend...even if people hurt me. Of course, much of that behavior on my part was because I was raised by parents who taught me to be nice. And yes, in therapy I realized I had my own abandonment issues for an assortment of reasons, namely the deaths of my parents while I was entering my 20's. Speaking to my issues/feelings within my familial structure was a no-no. Dad lectured and mom kept quiet, so naturally I kept quiet despite my feelings. Enter the year 2000 when my life changed significantly. I met the love of my life and soul mate (lostdragon) in March of 2000 and married him in September 2000. Friends and family thought I was quite possibly insane, and made an assortment of comments and judgements that horrified me. I am a live and let live type and am very accepting of people across the board. I try not to judge and give people the room to be who they are and be with who they wish to be with, although if they chose a decidely crazy axe murderer type I would obviously caution them. Anyway, all of a sudden something happened to me and I got angry. It was like a veil was lifted and I started to see that some of these people were not my friends and I couldn't take it anymore. And so the process of elimination began to occur. Though I ended the friendships, I freaked out completely. My friends were my mainstay, my support system and yet, the people I knew the longest were found out to be the most toxic for me. For the better part of the last few years, I have been banging my head against the wall, blaming my self, feeling lousy and hurt, bereft and stupid...you know, all those charming comments we make about ourselves. And then it occurred to me...is this a result of perimenopause or am I just a cranky loon! Your thoughts would be welcome.. P PS: Not whining about this...actually feel good to let go of negativity, but it is curious to me

.......Well Yippie Hippie, I can't quite determine just when it was that this life changing phenomena took place...Hmmm let me see - was it during the decline of my 25 year marriage? was it when my son was hit by a car?...or was it when my Mother died? Seeing as all these memorable events took place while I was IN peri, I really can't be sure which one was the determining factor in p*ss*ing all the surface dwellers and bottom feeders off! :mad: - but I am sure as hell not sorry now!

Hello Ladies- Yes, I've thought and re-evaulating my "friendships" and I guess the question is- what exactly is a friendship? It's amazing to see how many "friends" you have after you've had something major in your life - for me - I had brain surgery that affected the speech/language part of the brain, also it touched the emotional part of the brain (I cry easy, I laugh hard and I am who I am now, haha)....I had 8 months of rehab and speech therapy - and yes, I'm still in the healing process but I'm so very much better (obviously)...anyway - what I noticed was when I had problems getting the words out properly - and thru the frustration - I cryed easily - I'm sad to say - the majority of my "friends" disappeared ...or didn't have time to talk (that would have been helpful with the speech/language part of the brain)...and then when I could speak better and I became more like "me" again - they wanted to come back into my life - I guess I wasn't "high maintance" anymore. Soooo, the question is - were they my friends - I'd have to say no. And now I'm going thru peri-meno. (I'm 44) and there are times I'm emotionally sensitive - or as a friend said to me - I have passionate emotions - is that a problem OR is that a problem of the so called "friends". I guess my feelings and thoughts are if a "friend"makes you feel uncomfortable or make you feel that your too sensitive or not worth anything - it's time to walk away from the friendship. It's ok to have casual friendships - but you know the boundries and I wouldn't tell them to many personal things... Ahhh, then there is the blessings and what I call God Winks - they are the ones who let me cry - let me laugh - share their stories with me and they never have to worry about being critized by me....and also the God Winks via the internet - Power Surge.... There are wonderful, kind, compasionate people thru out the world - they are the ones I "choose" to associate with - You can't change other people, only within yourself. Blessings, Stacy

Hello all, Sometime ago I posted on this very topic. Yes, friendships change. I'm 52 now and I started shedding friends. I remember the weekly lunch that I had with 4 of my good friends, and knew even though we were long time friends, that I was not the same. The sillyness, I had out grown, even though we were the very close in age. Their needs were different to fill their lives. The truth was I had changed. I still hear from them occasionally, but I have really narrowed my true friends to 4. One of which is my husband. The best. The others are my sister, a friend who has known me for ever, and walked with me through every phase of my life, and the other is older than me who is my mentor, and I am her confidante. She just lost a son of 35, and I listen...that's all. We share common interest, and with these 4 people I feel so very fulfilled. I know this happens to many of us, and some it never happens. I fell as we go through this journey of life that we tend to take more control of what, or who is taking our energy and what, or who fills our cup. The most important thing is to know which and decide for yourself what is best for you. This is a time in our lives for us to put ourselves first. That was hard for me in the beginning, but it is so easy now, because what I give to others is real. They say if we have only one true friend that we are blessed. So for me I think this is normal. Love, Scarlett

One of my old favourites....... Everybody thinks you're great When your luck is going fine; Folks all slap you on the back Hard enough to break your spine! But it's only honest friends That will show how much they care When misfortune comes to you, And the load is hard to bear......

Yes, Jimi, I like that poem. However I am beginning to see that there is another nuance to all this - we tend to associate with people who are like us in terms of health, mental health, wealth etc. Sudden departures of friends when we are sick is just unkind and uncalled for 'though. PVM I realise that you felt that you were doing the "pruning" of your relationships 'though. It is hard to get an understanding of your situation whilst "standing way over here" however I am concerned that you are letting long time relationships go as a result of getting married. You say that you realised that the relationships were "toxic" and also that the people concerned were unsupportive of your marriage. (Those two points are somewhat in conflict.) I am concerned that you do not isolate yourself in the marriage. On the other hand it is really none of my business, just speaking my opinion. I have felt very upset that people were not there for me when I was ill. I have been very traumatized by considerations of that sort. I am trying to rise above that way of thinking. Getting healthier is supporting me in forming a new way of looking at things. What I have learned is quite harsh so I decided not to post it at this time. I seek forgiveness both for myself and for others who have harmed or neglected me. I seek to live with greater love and compassion for others who suffer. I am less bound by what others think, for I see that we are not really as connected as I thought that we were. Many profound, sad and half formed ideas such as this filter through my mind. Some people have been there for me... they stand out as shining stars of humanity and connectedness in my life. I do not discard people of long time acquaintance however I may not choose to see them for a while. I keep the door open. Some bridges have been burned I fear, not through intention, but sadly that has happened. I struggle with anger about some events that occured. I have picked my side (the side of compassionate connectedness and loyalty). Like the line to a song ... "Wouldn't want to be like you (them)".

Whitehorses, Scarlett, Stacy and Jimi, I so appreciate your answers and have some comments to make, as well as some clarifications. First, Stacy I am absolutely horrified that your friends were not there for you while you were going through your brain surgery, and the after effects of the surgery that clearly had changed you. My immediate instinct (as a mush ball, and as a friend who has stood by others through tragic and wonderful moments), is to hug you since I know this clearly hurt you. My reaction of course, is that these people were not true friends and were obviously uncomfortable that you were "different", and until you became like the "old you", they were not ready to rise to the occasion of true support. By contrast, your God Wink friends (I love that Phrase...can I borrow it) who honor you, which is the hallmark, I believe of true friendship, are the real friends you have. They are gems, real diamonds in the night sky who are to be treasured. I have made choices, which I will explain later, to surround myself with my God Winks because no matter where I am or they are, good, bad, ugly or whatever, we stand together throughout the thick and thin of it. My ability to tolerate toxicity (and concommitant b*tchiness etc) has long left me, and I don't have the time to invest in trying to change them to think the way I do. I can only worry about my own head. Life is too short to be immersed in negative energy. Scarlett, your post reminded me of the experiences I have had and why I ultimately arrived at letting some friends go, or in come cases, distancing myself since the relationships were not growing with the shifts in our lives. A friendship needs to thrive through changes in life, and these were not thriving. Like you I had a coterie of close friends, some which spanned for 30 + years, or just slightly less, like 25. We used to get together for lunches and dinners, spend time in the City and do things we had done for eons, or go shopping etc. We would be on the phone for hours talking about stuff, as we always did, some new things, some old reminiscences about our lives as friends etc, as well as general stuff. I started seeing the friendships change because I had changed significantly as a by product of maturation and my difficult divorce, serious health problems etc. I was feeling dissatisfied and frankly bored with some of the topics, which were no longer amusing or interesting to me. Because our value systems had changed, our lives were diametrically opposed - I was divorced with no kids, they were married with 1 or more kids and priorities and needs changed. I was learning how to survive as a single woman, and they were learning how to be parents of elementary or junior high school age kids, topics of which none of us could understand with each other, although I tried. Our frame of reference altered. Though I tried to make every effort to adjust to these things readily as a by product of my loyalty to my friends, I saw that some had not evolved from high school neuroses and would spend hours upon hours complaining about their physical issues. Ultimately I got tired with their negative comments and their preoccupation with aging (to the extent of getting Botox injections at 40 or boob jobs, liposuction), how fat they had become (one friend would continually interrupt me when I was in crisis and annouce she was so fat and had to be on Weight Watchers for the 10th time. She wanted to be 16 again, when she weighed three lbs, where I accepted that I didn't have the figure I had then, but had a woman's body now, (as opposed to bordering on the anorexic) Moreover, because I had changed I had begun to really think about the true context of friendships across the framework of our lives and to reevaluate their meaning to me. I had be raised NOT to be vocal about my needs and interests in resolving some of the issues I had, but initially could barely squeakto it though I tried. Hence no one heard me. As a non competitive woman (who is a "woman's woman") I have worked hard to work on my own issues as it pertains to jealousy and competition. I had moments in my 20's when I got jealous of others, and felt terrible about it, but got over it. Everyone has gifts and this is how I saw them. Unfortunately, their competitive nature and jealousy of me clearly confused me, especially when I set aside my own issues and stood by them even while I was in crisis. Now, I am with newer friends who are gifts...despite where I am or they are, as I said earlier, we are there for each other always. I don't need to have the 19000 friends I had years ago; I am satisfied with the ones I have --old and new -- who clearly demonstrate love and support wholly and with out meanness. Whitehorses, thank you for your concern, but I want to clarify something. My ending relationships near the time Dragon and I married was long in coming, and he was not the reason why I ended them. He helped me to see things yes, because things were publicly demonstrated to him about me that were terrible, and helped me to learn how to speak. He was not the catalyst of change nor was expecting me to dump people for him as a mechanism of control. I was long long weary of their nonsense and meanness, but hadn't the ability to effect change. I was too exhausted by my own crises, frankly. As I mentioned earlier, my closest friends had always demonstrated some kind of negative stuff that drove me utterly crazy. Forget the botox and the fat, but I began to become truly aware (taking blinders off) that there were consistent moments throughout our long history in which I was the target of their lunacy, and competitive nature. I saw their unwillingness to applaud my successes, their willingness to criticize my choices in life with absolute and totally infantilizing judgement, their meanspirited comments that were so utterly horrifying I was shocked into speechlessness. I won't go into these things here since I don't know if they are members, but suffice it to say after FINALLY RECOGNIZING that these comments were cruel and not supportive, I realized it had always been that way, and I allowed it, a thing I still kick myself about. I realized that they were toxic for me and for me to grow and move forward, I had to let them go. When I married LD, these same people were the first ones to judge my decisions as if I were 12 years old, but dare I articulated to them that they were staying in lousy marriages and doing nothing about it. I said these things and got the usual excuses ( I can't, I have kids, it was easier for you....(notebene: Easier in some ways, harder in others. There can be no comparison obviously). My old friends who are real friends have remained with me, and offered no judgement about my decisions. My gems. Like you I completely agree with forgiveness, as holding on to negativity, anger and rage towards others fosters no growth, only more misery. I surround myself with friends who are shining lights in my life (and no I am not isolating myself although while processing this I did a bit, so I could work through it); I have left the door open and some have returned by their choice...still in process though; i do struggle in anger as you do because of some things that have been said, but I have come to realize I can't change them...I wish them love, and harbor no ill will. Connectedness and loyalty is my mantra, and yet I cannot expect them to think the way I do. Such is life. Jimi, Your directness always makes me laugh --short sweet and to the point. You fiery creature! YH appreciates your commentary and the little old favorite you posted. Blessings and hugs to all, P

Hi Yippie Hippie - just passing - sorry your post is tooo long to read tonight - can't stop......(((hugs)))

Ya know, ya hit the nail right on the head. I also shed a few friends while discovering that I had less patience with those with terminal "foot in mouth" disease. hehehe. At least we are not dropping our friends for the love of "men" as I have heard so often. Hang in there and take good care of yourself.

Boy, am I ever not looking to men to provide what I need these days. My women friends have been solid and there for me in ways few men could be. I think the song ought to say, "Why can't a man be more like a woman?"

I always thought I had many friends but now realise they were only acquaintances. I have had friends who ring me and confide in me, pouring out all their troubles but since I've struggled with agoraphobia they've certainly tailed off. Even though I've asked them to let me know when they're meeting up I can tell they're fed up of asking cos I don't go. I could count all my friends on the stump of my hand!

ive noticed the older you get the fewer friends you have...the close ones are always there but they sit home most of the time just like me, thank god he gets me out once in awhile,even if its only for my walk somedays

I think that's true about having fewer friends when we are older. I guess when I was "young" I just wanted to hang out with other women, shop, go to lunch, whatever. Now, I want someone more my "equal," which is soooo hard to find, lol. Someone who has really grown, who analyzes themselves and life. Maybe I'm too serious (it's just my personality and I have no interest in changing for anyone), but the women I meet, once I get to know them, just live on the surface, and that is so not me. I'm doomed to be alone with my husband, but that's O.K. because he is cognitively so much like I am.

At my Red Hatter's meeting last night, we were going around the table introducing ourselves, and one of the women said, " I'm a heterosexual.... I have sex with men, but I LOVE women." We all busted out laughing. AMEN!!;)

Good one JJ. Aimee that's like us. My sister is totally opposite, she's away holidaying with girlfriends. Her husband does his own thing.

im so glad i found this topic! i have so much i want to say but dont know where to start and i dont want to write a biography of my life either. all my life ive always felt like women dont like me. even the women that were my best friends. ive always felt they never really truly liked me. i mean , when i was 11-12 years old i had a best friend that i was with 24-7 , but looking back , i felt it then too. and my next best friend was my friend for about 15 years and we did everything together and had fun , but again the same feelings of her not really likeing me. through the years i helped her thru problems with her job , kids , 2 divorces and her husband cheating on her , and every time i needed her when i went through problems , she never once went out of her way to be there for me. so now we come to the here and now. im 42 and dont have any friends at all. i have a job working in a salon -dayspa that i love , but again im working with all women and none of them seem to want to be friends. the owner , is 37 years old and thinks everyone is below her and now im working right next to her all day. yesterday after work she came up to me and showed me a few articles she tore out of a magazine about how to dress for success and how to sell yourself and products and how to be a good receptionist. i looked at her and said "are you trying to tell me something?" and she said " well... yeah" then she started to talk about my tank-tops i wear to work saying it looks bad when my brastraps show or my boobs are hanging out. and she also said i shouldnt ever talk about myself while im working. my tank tops are not skimpy and my boobs do not hang out of anything i wear. and when my clients and i have something in common , we share our experiences and i dont see anything wrong with that. anyway im pretty sensitve with all this peri stuff going on and i just want to cry. i wish i knew what it is about me that people dont like. i want friends in my life but it doesnt look like i will ever have any. my only true friend is my daughter who is 26. and im glad we are so close but it seems like that one doesnt count , ya know? im just really sick of people judging each other and no-one gets along. with my clients , im happy and we always seem like old friends during our conversations but now im being told im doing everything wrong and im hurt and confused. i love my job and i need it so i dont want to quit. what is wrong with me? what should i do? susan

Susan, I have some "maybes" for you (since you asked). I doubt there's anything wrong with you. I had the same experience you did with a long-time friend you helped through all of her life crises, yet she didn't return the favor. Some people are just self-centered. In fact, TONS of people are this way. I think they see someone like you who will be there for them and who doesn't ask anything in return. That was me. However, it no longer is, and I drop anyone who begins to act that way! Sometimes this happens when your mother, like my mother, is a narcissist (I wish I could spell today). You learn in childhood that others' needs are more important than your own. This carries over into your adult relationships. This may not be the case for you--just worth a mention. Just because you felt your childhood friends didn't like you doesn't mean they didn't. They wouldn't have been your best friend 24/7 if they didn't. That perception is just that: your perception, which often stems from feelings of inferiority, but isn't really true. If your clients like you, maybe your boss is actually jealous? Who knows people's motivations. Relationships, at work or wherever, can be complicated. People are all different and we just have to work as best we can with (or around) them. Maybe you could go to lunch with her and feel her out and see if she has any legitimate criticism or if it's really just her problem. Try not to be defensive though. It's very hard to listen to any criticism, but in a job situation, sometimes it is vital. Anyway, try to be as positive about yourself as you can, especially at work, if you like your job. That will show through. People like people who like themselves. This is a fact. Good luck to you, and please know everyone here wishes you success. Editted to add: I really think it is true that when we think people, in general, don't like us it's because we don't like ourself.

Dear Sudio, You said she's 37, not much younger than you. Sometimes in peri we're struggling so much with it, that we forget to pamper ourselves. Perhaps what she is seeing, is that you are struggling. She just doesn't quite know how or why, so she made a big fauxpax. At least it was after work and sounds like it was a private conversation. Don't let it get you further down, but accept it as maybe a signal that you need to pamper yourself. We're all going through changes that are physical in front of the world. My darn thinning hair has me at odds with my hairdresser! I finally told her, "I want to grow old gracefully and telling me to grow my hair longer isn't graceful!" Wanting to look my very best is graceful, acknowledging my changes and coping is graceful, picking myself up in the morning by getting dressed with makeup etc.(even when I don't start out wanting to) is graceful. We're precious people at this time and treating ourselves well is our gift to ourselves. Nobody else is going to do it for us.

Dear Aimee and EBH, thank you for your replies. i just dont know what to think anymore. i really am not who i used to be anymore. i used to feel upbeat and happy and always looked on the bright side of things but that person is gone. i used to like myself and the way i looked but now im not sure what i think of the way i look. after peri started 2 years ago , i got very frustrated with my hair and cut it really short. ive never had short hair in my life! it was long and strawberry blond , now it is short and dark brown (my natural color). and i like it alot but when i look in the mirror all i see is how much i look like my mom! not ugly or anything , just older. to me that is. everyone else says i look younger. anyway , i guess my self-perception is pretty distorted as far as my looks go. im about 20lbs. overweight but i keep telling myself that i look pretty darn good for having 7 children! doesnt change the fact that i feel fat. oh well. and i think that im one of the nicest and most decent and considerate and giving people i know. but on the other hand , im a control freak. ive been a mother since i was 15 years old and i dont know how not to run things a certain way. that is my dilemma , how do i let go of some of the control? ive always in my heart of hearts thought that that was my downfall as far as friends go. always been opinionated and sure of myself. that i was right about how things should be. do you think that might be my problem? and if so , how do i stop being who i am and be something i dont know how to be? you're probably thinking " wow she needs a shrink!" lol. oh and by the way , when my boss talked to me yesterday , it wasnt in private , there were clients in the room as well as co-workers. and she isnt really "my boss" , i rent a booth in her salon and run my own business. thanks again susan

I read this and I had to share your experience. My mom passed away in over Mother's Day 1996. So she's been gone awhile. The other day I was going through some old files and found her drivers license. Of course it's not the most complimentary picture, but at the time it had all her vital information on it. What startled(sp) me was I thought I was looking at myself. I used my diggie cam and took my picture and placed next to hers. It was weird. The next morning while I was getting ready for the day, I looked in the mirror and told Mom, good morning. Weird or what! I'm sorry that dunce of an owner is so ignorant! She could've waited until you two were alone to say stuff like that. I'm sorry I misunderstood that she was your boss and the shop was closed. I made an assumption that wasn't true. It does sound like you are struggling with your looks and perceptions. I found a really beautiful article today online about "the menopause:metamorphisis." I'll try and find the link and post it here. Please take care of yourself.

Sorry Sudio, I read it as if she was your boss. Perhaps she'd been watching Steel Magnolias and thought she could transform you like Dolly Parton did to Daryl Hannah! Why do people judge a book by it's cover? I am truly sick of people who think everyone should be dressed for success. To be honest when men turn up in suits for work I feel they are out to force a sale. I feel more comfortable when they're in toning jackets and trousers. Should you wear a red suit and lipstick to match? No! You should be you! As long as you look tidy and clean and you can do hair you'll keep your clients. The others will just clear off and find the newest hairdresser in town. They're with you BECAUSE THEY LIKE YOU! :D

I'm feeling your pain, Sudio. Except for the seven children! You must be supermom!! I used to be a control freak, too. I don't know how I learned to kick back and let the world go by without my explicit directions, but somewhere during meno I started to let other people and other things take care of themselves. It's thrown my husband off balance (now I let him turn the wrong way without saying anything... hah!), but it's given me a new (and more relaxing) look on life. It sounds like you're feeling insecure with yourself - and, whoa! who doesn't feel that way during menopause!!! But don't let it get you down. I think you'll find that you will like yourself better and better as you get through this hormone mess. And you'll start letting go of the controlling attitudes, too. Like the other ladies have said, pamper yourself a bit more, and try to just go with the flow for awhile. Take care, we're all in this boat with you! another Susan

Thanks Ladies , im feeling a bit better today thanks to all the support from all of you. i just went out yesterday and bought one of those long black hairdressers jackets to wear at work. i guess i failed to mention that im a nail tech. , not a hairdresser. duh. thats just my meno-mind not working to full capacity these days. im thinking i might just look for work at another place in town.i dont know. but thank you all , i love that i have power-surge to come to when i need it! i wish there was a "meno island" we could all go to and live together during our meno years. susan

7 CHILDREN!!! Sudio ~ You ARE super woman!!! Ditto to all the Ladies posts - not just pretty faces in here ya know I do like the idea of the long jacket cover all - you could get one in several colours and look "professional" and feel comfortable (grab jacket and go so to speak) - that is after you tell little miss muffet to BUGGER OFF! Matoaka hit it on the head when she said in reference to control to let other people and other things take care of themselves......"let it go" - "give it up" - best advice ever. Prioritize! What's important! - the rest does't matter. It takes a lot of energy to control the people around us and it very rarely works out - people usually end up doing what they want anyway....Sooo hand them the reigns and Set yourself free! Anyone who has raised a family has had to be a control freak at some point and as you have raised 7 children you probably needed to be one most of the time back then - but this is your time - take it and run with it....... As for needing a shrink - I think most of the ladies in here would agree that we ALL feel we need one of those lol....especially after being everyone elses shrink for so many years. As for starting to look like our Mums age wise.....think of the alternative!!! Not a good look at all My "best" friend since childhood died of cervicle cancer 3 months before her 40th birthday (11 years ago) - UNFAIR!!! and man, do I miss her She left 8 year old twins and a teenage daughter ......ALONE without a Mother to "control" them ever again and without the "pleasure" of experiencing the aging process. Most people have a pandora's box of insecurities and try very hard to conceal it at all costs - friends, family, aquaintances, little miss muffets etc. EVERYBODY has one and react according to the depth of those insecurities - projecting them on to others. Don't be a reactor to others insecurities...this only increases the depth of our own. What they "think" is none of your business. Advice/suggestion is the same - take what you need and leave the rest.......That's an order lol

When you need a Friend Everybody thinks you're great When your luck is going fine Folks all slap you on the back Hard enough to break your spine! But it's only honest friends That will show how much they care When misfortune comes to you And the load is hard to bear.........