So for all of you who helped me a year ago get through a marital meltdown I think you all deserve an update. For those who remember, my wife and I hit a wall just about a year ago and it was close to an end. She said she had lost all connection with me and had become lonely. But with a change of my work schedule and a change in my attitude, (helped by the book The Secrets of Happily Married Men), we have come a long way. The tension level is waaaaaay down, and my wife is now not only tolerating me, but choosing to spend much of her time with me. In fact we spent the summer, what there was of it here, going to the beach together with me surfing as I did when I was younger, cowabunga, and attempting to teach her how to surf. Not an easy thing to do. We have had some meltdowns but I can honestly say that from her actions, and what she says, it seems that she expects to be with me into the future.
Some of you are probably wondering what this has to do with menopause. Well part of my frustration was at age 52, my wife claimed that she was not experiencing any affects or symptoms of menopause and I felt that she probably was. I did make the mistake of saying so and that was the last time I ever did so. Not a good reaction. She has not brought up the subject until a couple of nights ago, when out of the blue she says, “I had a pretty heavy night sweat last night,…. And it wasn’t the first one I’ve had”. I think I said something like, “really,…that’s weird” and let it drift out into space. I think that may have been her subtle way of telling me that maybe she is experiencing some affects. (Saying “I told you so” at that moment probably would not have been a good idea so I chose not to).
So no more talk of moving out, no more bad sourness, but…. The hard part.
She still does not feel right to show me any real affection. The only time we have hugged is at the end of the melt downs. But the confusing things are the non direct or not obvious affectionate gestures. She, while on our camping trip, walks next to me so closely that we were actually touching. And in stores and other public places the same thing. So it seems that if it is not an obvious gesture of affection like a hug or a kiss she will do it, but no direct gestures.
The ugly part. I think I understand what is causing her distresses but it is really hard to, lets say, “Turn the other cheek” when she displays her irrational behavior. I understand that her annoyance trigger is set at the most sensitive setting. I know that with age issues, empty nest feelings, and menopause issues that she has a lot on her plate. But it scares me wondering if she will really come out of it someday. I know the whole process takes years to subside, but feeling like your walking on eggshells everyday is getting tiring. I some times feel that all I do to please her is disregarded and ignored.
I would really like to read how and when this process came to an end for some of you, and if you feel you did return to yourselves eventually. Because right now, if I knew my wife’s personality was not going to change back, I am not sure I want to walk on eggshells the rest of my life.
Devoted
I have followed your posts in the past and we have spoken freely on here. I am so so happy there is some progress even if it is small. You are a wonderful, warm caring husband who deserves to be happy. She's lucky to have you...it's hard for her to see right now and that's ok. There's a lot of ups and downs to menopause...I'm still there so I have no advice about the after effects but I will tell you this. You have been one of the most devoted (no pun intended), loving, patient partners I have seen on here and you truely deserve the love and affection you are craving and apparently so very dearly miss. I hope she comes back one day. It's a long lonely road for some. Take the small things that are still there and good and hold on to them. Let those things give you comfort when things get tough.
She still does not feel right to show me any real affection. The only time we have hugged is at the end of the melt downs. But the confusing things are the non direct or not obvious affectionate gestures. She, while on our camping trip, walks next to me so closely that we were actually touching. And in stores and other public places the same thing. So it seems that if it is not an obvious gesture of affection like a hug or a kiss she will do it, but no direct gestures.
this part of your post struck a cord with me on a personal level. It appears that your wife has withheld this part of her for so long she may be unsure how to go about rekindling it. Meaning, she may be interested in just touching or holding hands but feels that if she does so you'll take it as an invitation to more than she's ready to give, if you get my drift. Next time you are having a good day and she walks this close to you try just holding pinky fingers and if she looks at you and doesn't pull away, just smile sweetly and keep walking. Don't SAY anything! She might very well feel safe in that much and it is a huge step if you can take it. give it whirl and see what happens. Hugs are very intimate, pinky fingers are much safer but still meaningful.
Good advice Jan, right now I am in a "personal zone" and any intrusion makes me feel claustaphobic. My husband and I hold hands A LOT!!! but he knows more is uncomfortable for me right now and respects that. It will go back to normal but for now my hot flashes are BAD and I can't tolerate my own heat much less somebody elses!!!
QUOTE (ladybugsforu @ Oct 19 2009, 05:56 PM) 
Good advice Jan, right now I am in a "personal zone" and any intrusion makes me feel claustaphobic. My husband and I hold hands A LOT!!! but he knows more is uncomfortable for me right now and respects that. It will go back to normal but for now my hot flashes are BAD and I can't tolerate my own heat much less somebody elses!!!
I guess my question to you is I am assuming that you are communicating your desires to your husband? And does he communicate back? And is that acceptable, I know you said that your husband "respects" your wishes. Just wondering how to get to that stage of communication?
Hey Devoted, that's good news. That's a major improvement. I really like that book and have recommended it every chance I get.
My impression of your wife walking close to you when out in public was to be close and affectionate. Maybe try holding hands. Don't be put off if she needs to let go. My wife's hand used to sweat like crazy at times. She just couldn't stand it for too long. Affection in public is "safer" than affection when alone because nothing can happen. That's my personal interpretation of that. I said this in another post, women interpret our affections as prelude to sex. Everything. A hug, a kiss, a pat on the butt, all of it as a dance to the bedroom. You need to do all you can to be clear it is not going that way. In doing that process myself I was cuddled with my wife in the living room. I got really excited, but was sticking with my cuddle. She on the other hand suggested sex. Deep breath I said, can't we just cuddle? Wow, what a game changer that was. I think I would have gotten grudging sex, but instead I've gotten lots of hugs and kisses ever since. That one event broke the ice.
You've got to be sensitive to the hug no hug feeling in her. In her proximity, go in for the hug, if you sense a resistance, just scratch her back, or quickly rub her shoulder (I mean almost like a guy to guy friendly gesture). Let it go. The better you get at it the more at ease your wife will get. She probably wants the hugs, but wants to be sure she's "safe" with what she can handle at the time. We beastlie men seem to be sex fiends in women's minds. So we need to tread gently in that region.
There is a light at the end of the tunnel. I went through some really tough times, those are all in the past now. We are moving forward and very much going to be together. It's nice, different, but nice.
My impression of your wife walking close to you when out in public was to be close and affectionate. Maybe try holding hands. Don't be put off if she needs to let go. My wife's hand used to sweat like crazy at times. She just couldn't stand it for too long. Affection in public is "safer" than affection when alone because nothing can happen. That's my personal interpretation of that. I said this in another post, women interpret our affections as prelude to sex. Everything. A hug, a kiss, a pat on the butt, all of it as a dance to the bedroom. You need to do all you can to be clear it is not going that way. In doing that process myself I was cuddled with my wife in the living room. I got really excited, but was sticking with my cuddle. She on the other hand suggested sex. Deep breath I said, can't we just cuddle? Wow, what a game changer that was. I think I would have gotten grudging sex, but instead I've gotten lots of hugs and kisses ever since. That one event broke the ice.
You've got to be sensitive to the hug no hug feeling in her. In her proximity, go in for the hug, if you sense a resistance, just scratch her back, or quickly rub her shoulder (I mean almost like a guy to guy friendly gesture). Let it go. The better you get at it the more at ease your wife will get. She probably wants the hugs, but wants to be sure she's "safe" with what she can handle at the time. We beastlie men seem to be sex fiends in women's minds. So we need to tread gently in that region.
There is a light at the end of the tunnel. I went through some really tough times, those are all in the past now. We are moving forward and very much going to be together. It's nice, different, but nice.
QUOTE (RegGuy @ Oct 22 2009, 04:02 PM)
Hey Devoted, that's good news. That's a major improvement. I really like that book and have recommended it every chance I get.
My impression of your wife walking close to you when out in public was to be close and affectionate. Maybe try holding hands. Don't be put off if she needs to let go. My wife's hand used to sweat like crazy at times. She just couldn't stand it for too long. Affection in public is "safer" than affection when alone because nothing can happen. That's my personal interpretation of that. I said this in another post, women interpret our affections as prelude to sex. Everything. A hug, a kiss, a pat on the butt, all of it as a dance to the bedroom. You need to do all you can to be clear it is not going that way. In doing that process myself I was cuddled with my wife in the living room. I got really excited, but was sticking with my cuddle. She on the other hand suggested sex. Deep breath I said, can't we just cuddle? Wow, what a game changer that was. I think I would have gotten grudging sex, but instead I've gotten lots of hugs and kisses ever since. That one event broke the ice.
You've got to be sensitive to the hug no hug feeling in her. In her proximity, go in for the hug, if you sense a resistance, just scratch her back, or quickly rub her shoulder (I mean almost like a guy to guy friendly gesture). Let it go. The better you get at it the more at ease your wife will get. She probably wants the hugs, but wants to be sure she's "safe" with what she can handle at the time. We beastlie men seem to be sex fiends in women's minds. So we need to tread gently in that region.
There is a light at the end of the tunnel. I went through some really tough times, those are all in the past now. We are moving forward and very much going to be together. It's nice, different, but nice.
My impression of your wife walking close to you when out in public was to be close and affectionate. Maybe try holding hands. Don't be put off if she needs to let go. My wife's hand used to sweat like crazy at times. She just couldn't stand it for too long. Affection in public is "safer" than affection when alone because nothing can happen. That's my personal interpretation of that. I said this in another post, women interpret our affections as prelude to sex. Everything. A hug, a kiss, a pat on the butt, all of it as a dance to the bedroom. You need to do all you can to be clear it is not going that way. In doing that process myself I was cuddled with my wife in the living room. I got really excited, but was sticking with my cuddle. She on the other hand suggested sex. Deep breath I said, can't we just cuddle? Wow, what a game changer that was. I think I would have gotten grudging sex, but instead I've gotten lots of hugs and kisses ever since. That one event broke the ice.
You've got to be sensitive to the hug no hug feeling in her. In her proximity, go in for the hug, if you sense a resistance, just scratch her back, or quickly rub her shoulder (I mean almost like a guy to guy friendly gesture). Let it go. The better you get at it the more at ease your wife will get. She probably wants the hugs, but wants to be sure she's "safe" with what she can handle at the time. We beastlie men seem to be sex fiends in women's minds. So we need to tread gently in that region.
There is a light at the end of the tunnel. I went through some really tough times, those are all in the past now. We are moving forward and very much going to be together. It's nice, different, but nice.
Ok, now I have to ask: How long RegGuy? You joined PS in July 2007 which I assume was when you were in the "Oh my sweet Lord, what is going on?" phase, and now you are in the "moving forward" phase. 2years and a bit later... Is this accurate?
I for one, and likely a few others are wondering still (even though it varies from person to person) what to expect in the gradual changes over time. I am well, but still yearn to see even the slightest hint that she is emerging from the shadows. I have seen the odd "positive" sign, but not much... Even then, I don't know if what I have seen warrants getting any hopes up or not.
Can you share and summarize the time it took and phases of your "travels" (for lack of a better word) for you and your wife, and how you have reached this point?
Thanks (sorry... I don't mean to put you on the spot for this either...)
Here goes:
This is how my experience went:
Seven years ago, sex started to drop off and she stopped being as interested as she was.
Six years ago sex took a nose dive and she started to argue that it's not that important.
Five years ago she started to complain about not sleeping well and how I made noise at night that kept her up. She had trouble sleeping and would often be hot or cold.
Four years ago she stopped suggesting sex entirely and it was up to me. She also was starting to get grumpy about my attitude in general.
Three years ago she started to scream at me about things that normally no one would really notice. Like leaving the bills on the counter instead of putting them in the bill area. Major issues like that. She started to insist that we weren't going to continue. She started leaving on drives and was upset with me 4 days out of the week.
Two years ago I thought I'd lose my mind. Everything you read on these pages started happening in one form or another. I was beside myself. She set up a sex day of the week to keep me "quiet." Or shut me up, your pick. I was nearly suicidal.
Last year, things started to mellow and arguments dropped off sharply. She had her last period and never had one again. It's now been like 13 months, give or take a month. I really don't know exactly, we were off that subject by this part of our life.
Now, it's not bliss, but it is bliss in comparison to the past seven years. Now, if you look back you might be able to start tagging the years yourself and get a better idea. But this is a long process. I am a very physical guy and thus took note earlier. I also went through this with an older wife before getting married again. So I kinda knew the early signs. I'm not proud of leaving my first marriage, but I was young and that whole thing didn't make sense to me. I was in my early 30s and she apparently started earlier than most. We had reached like the point six years ago in my marriage now.
The only thing that difficult now is we live a pretty much sex-free life. She has no interest at all. I hear that changes with time too, but right now we are living a very loving sensuous life, but no sex. Not easy.
Hope that helps. I'm sure there are many women on this board who would disagree with this timeline, but that's my experience for what it's worth.
This is how my experience went:
Seven years ago, sex started to drop off and she stopped being as interested as she was.
Six years ago sex took a nose dive and she started to argue that it's not that important.
Five years ago she started to complain about not sleeping well and how I made noise at night that kept her up. She had trouble sleeping and would often be hot or cold.
Four years ago she stopped suggesting sex entirely and it was up to me. She also was starting to get grumpy about my attitude in general.
Three years ago she started to scream at me about things that normally no one would really notice. Like leaving the bills on the counter instead of putting them in the bill area. Major issues like that. She started to insist that we weren't going to continue. She started leaving on drives and was upset with me 4 days out of the week.
Two years ago I thought I'd lose my mind. Everything you read on these pages started happening in one form or another. I was beside myself. She set up a sex day of the week to keep me "quiet." Or shut me up, your pick. I was nearly suicidal.
Last year, things started to mellow and arguments dropped off sharply. She had her last period and never had one again. It's now been like 13 months, give or take a month. I really don't know exactly, we were off that subject by this part of our life.
Now, it's not bliss, but it is bliss in comparison to the past seven years. Now, if you look back you might be able to start tagging the years yourself and get a better idea. But this is a long process. I am a very physical guy and thus took note earlier. I also went through this with an older wife before getting married again. So I kinda knew the early signs. I'm not proud of leaving my first marriage, but I was young and that whole thing didn't make sense to me. I was in my early 30s and she apparently started earlier than most. We had reached like the point six years ago in my marriage now.
The only thing that difficult now is we live a pretty much sex-free life. She has no interest at all. I hear that changes with time too, but right now we are living a very loving sensuous life, but no sex. Not easy.
Hope that helps. I'm sure there are many women on this board who would disagree with this timeline, but that's my experience for what it's worth.
QUOTE (RegGuy @ Oct 22 2009, 09:52 PM)
Here goes:
This is how my experience went:
<<snip>>
Hope that helps. I'm sure there are many women on this board who would disagree with this timeline, but that's my experience for what it's worth.
This is how my experience went:
<<snip>>
Hope that helps. I'm sure there are many women on this board who would disagree with this timeline, but that's my experience for what it's worth.
Thanks! Yes, it does actually. I can certainly relate to a general decline over the past several years of intimacy, moodiness, etc. Now we are just living under the same roof with our kids... no words of love whatsoever and cold as ice (occasional "forced grin" though...) I'm hopeful that we are halfway through or more if possible, and that our marriage will survive... along with my sanity.
QUOTE (GoalieGuy @ Oct 22 2009, 10:23 PM)
Thanks! Yes, it does actually. I can certainly relate to a general decline over the past several years of intimacy, moodiness, etc. Now we are just living under the same roof with our kids... no words of love whatsoever and cold as ice (occasional "forced grin" though...) I'm hopeful that we are halfway through or more if possible, and that our marriage will survive... along with my sanity.
There are many times I thought my sanity might snap. At those times I was reminded of a story. Short take. A king was suffering from much anxiety, he offered a fortune for the man who could solve it for him. A man came forward and said for 1/10 the king's fortune he would resolve his problems forever. The king said that if it was true he would pay. A week later the man returned with a ring. The ring said "this too shall pass."
The king was furious and refused to pay.
However, if you remember, this too shall pass, you will realize all that is wonderful, all that is mediocre and all that is horrible, will soon pass. Think back to when you were first married, does that not seem like a blink of time? So let the time pass, let your wife have her time and relax. This too shall pass.
I almost hate to say this, but I started to watch my wife's reactions to things as if I was watching a reality show. Not my life, a show on tv. It made it less intense and allowed me to wonder what was going to happen next. Trust me, your wife will grow tired of yelling at you, or being angry, or whatever it is. She won't be able to hold onto that level of intensity. It will pass. It does pass.
I don't mean to make make light of it, but in a way it's funny. How can anyone get that seriously upset over a flat tire, or a dirty pan in the sink. Really. It's got nothing to do with the actual thing she's talking about, it's just her whole life seems to be out of balance. So find your balance, your center and let her feel you being OK. It helps. Truly. Perhaps it's time for you to take yoga or tai chi. Something a bit yin to balance out your yang.
Also, I would take my wedding ring off and roll it around in my fingers, think of the time she put it on my hand and remember that I loved her.
It's also OK to cry, this is a very sad time for you too.
I'm sorry for your pain, I know if well. It does pass, she's worth it. Hang in there.
I'm sorry for your pain, I know if well. It does pass, she's worth it. Hang in there.
[/quote]
Once again Reguy I have to say that your writings are right-on. I am at the point where I think I understand what is happening with/to her and that she just can’t help it. She still does not mention whatsoever anything about menopause and I still don’t understand why.
I am struggling now with a terrible feeling that I just don’t matter. It doesn’t matter that I do everything I can to please her with almost know acknowledgment. It doesn’t matter that the things I used to do for enjoyment seem so trivial to me now that they don’t interest me anymore. It doesn’t matter that she can be so disagreeable to be around at times that I get such an overwhelming feeling of sadness that I have to leave the house so my boys don’t see me so upset. Yes she will apologize for being bitchy afterwards and say, “That’s just how I am”, but it is a small fraction compared to my sadness. I am just struggling with the fact that it seems to be all about her and that what I am feeling doesn’t matter whatsoever. Yes Reguy you are right; this will pass, but I feel that I am beating a dead horse here. They say that the definition of insanity is repeating over and over the same thing and expecting a different result. Is this what I am doing? Do I continue being a good soldier just to be squished again for my effort? I really don’t know how to proceed here.
Can I just say....Bless you guys for coming here. I applaud you guys for not only wanting to stick it out but also for searching for answers and trying to help your wives out along this " SCARY NIGHTMARE . "
kudos ((()))
kudos ((()))
well at least you have each other to help when the going gets tough... about 5yrs ago,I on the other hand dumped my very nice boyfriend of 6yrs(not live in)in the throes of this madness. I don't even remember why...all I know is that everything he did or said irritated me
beyond belief...I would dread any intimacy between us and avoided it like the plague....I was so mean to him....violent even..he put with it...he was patient...I was so mean to him...he did not deserve that.I am so sorry .....it was beyond my control...like I was watching this happen to somebody else...now I find myself alone all the time and totally unable to relate
to men on any level anymore...All I feel is contempt and disjust..I am just so scared that this feeling is permanent and I will be alone like a miserable old hag for the rest of my
life an die alone...all because of hormomes...this has been my lot in life now for over 13yrs and it doesn't feel like change is coming
anytime soon...if anything a lot of days now I feel worse and worse.....just hang in there something good is bound to happen sooner or later...
be well and good luck
beyond belief...I would dread any intimacy between us and avoided it like the plague....I was so mean to him....violent even..he put with it...he was patient...I was so mean to him...he did not deserve that.I am so sorry .....it was beyond my control...like I was watching this happen to somebody else...now I find myself alone all the time and totally unable to relate
to men on any level anymore...All I feel is contempt and disjust..I am just so scared that this feeling is permanent and I will be alone like a miserable old hag for the rest of my
life an die alone...all because of hormomes...this has been my lot in life now for over 13yrs and it doesn't feel like change is coming
anytime soon...if anything a lot of days now I feel worse and worse.....just hang in there something good is bound to happen sooner or later...
be well and good luck
QUOTE (Devoted @ Oct 25 2009, 11:24 AM)
I'm sorry for your pain, I know if well. It does pass, she's worth it. Hang in there.
Once again Reguy I have to say that your writings are right-on. I am at the point where I think I understand what is happening with/to her and that she just can’t help it. She still does not mention whatsoever anything about menopause and I still don’t understand why.
I am struggling now with a terrible feeling that I just don’t matter. It doesn’t matter that I do everything I can to please her with almost know acknowledgment. It doesn’t matter that the things I used to do for enjoyment seem so trivial to me now that they don’t interest me anymore. It doesn’t matter that she can be so disagreeable to be around at times that I get such an overwhelming feeling of sadness that I have to leave the house so my boys don’t see me so upset. Yes she will apologize for being bitchy afterwards and say, “That’s just how I am”, but it is a small fraction compared to my sadness. I am just struggling with the fact that it seems to be all about her and that what I am feeling doesn’t matter whatsoever. Yes Reguy you are right; this will pass, but I feel that I am beating a dead horse here. They say that the definition of insanity is repeating over and over the same thing and expecting a different result. Is this what I am doing? Do I continue being a good soldier just to be squished again for my effort? I really don’t know how to proceed here.
Once again Reguy I have to say that your writings are right-on. I am at the point where I think I understand what is happening with/to her and that she just can’t help it. She still does not mention whatsoever anything about menopause and I still don’t understand why.
I am struggling now with a terrible feeling that I just don’t matter. It doesn’t matter that I do everything I can to please her with almost know acknowledgment. It doesn’t matter that the things I used to do for enjoyment seem so trivial to me now that they don’t interest me anymore. It doesn’t matter that she can be so disagreeable to be around at times that I get such an overwhelming feeling of sadness that I have to leave the house so my boys don’t see me so upset. Yes she will apologize for being bitchy afterwards and say, “That’s just how I am”, but it is a small fraction compared to my sadness. I am just struggling with the fact that it seems to be all about her and that what I am feeling doesn’t matter whatsoever. Yes Reguy you are right; this will pass, but I feel that I am beating a dead horse here. They say that the definition of insanity is repeating over and over the same thing and expecting a different result. Is this what I am doing? Do I continue being a good soldier just to be squished again for my effort? I really don’t know how to proceed here.
If I had a dime for every time I felt that way... Yes, it feels like you are beating a dead horse all the time... and similarly I have 'escaped' at various times over the course of the last 4 months, probably the worst when I just hopped in the car and drove... I ended up going for about a 5 hour drive in the countryside enjoying the changing colours, thinking, yelling, crying, you name it... The sadness passes though... and eventually as part of detachment, you end up able to cope and level out the emotional roller coaster...
Yes, it is all about her, and the best you can do is leave her think it out, feel what she needs to feel... However... as many people say here, there is a line in the sand regarding blatant abuse... something I have had to deal in my own way, and hopefully you won't need to.
I don't think you should stop caring about your wife, or doing things that typically would have made her happy in the past... just don't point them out to her and don't expect any thank you's. If you do that right now, chances are she will take exception to being told about it. Also with my wife, there was the 'I want to do it' attitude... For instance, clothes come out of the dryer, they need to be folded, right? Well I would jump on them after my wife would take them out of the dryer... Took her a few times before she finally told me to stop... I was just trying to help and lighten her load, but in her world and state of mind (forgetfulness, fog, etc), she had routines established and any disruption to these routines (even though well intentioned) became an invasion of her world and would throw her off completely... Why say thank you if your world has just been invaded and you have lost all bearing because of it? I bought her flowers this past July... I don't think I will be buying some anytime soon. I made her lunch one day to head off to work... and put xox with a Sharpie pen on the plastic wrapper and a little heart... last time I did that too. Since I have made her lunch several times, but no extras and no expectations... The odd time, it happens... You get recognition for something you did. A smile in return and a you're very welcome is all I do... and that glimpse of my former wife helps carry me through the day.
The appreciation will come one day... I cling to that hope much like RegGuy points out with his story and the 'it shall pass' statement... And much like all will say... take care of yourself, take responsibility for your own well-being and happiness. Don't soldier on clinging to a belief that your wife will return as she was before... Just keep caring about her, but don't care for her. And hang in there!
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