Hi all,

Thank you for all the insights and open discussion I've been reading, to help me to continue on, support my wife and let her be herself throughout this transition.

I need some advice though on what to do... about an emotional affair...

Very happily married now for several years, minus perhaps the last two... as pressures of my demanding job pulled me away from the family (ok, of course I didn't say no so it's my fault) combined with a very demanding teenager at home, and bit by bit my wife and I drifted. I didn't really realize to what extent, but like an ostrich I stuck my head in the sand and didn't react. We started going through the motions. Every summer, stress levels were down and we would seem to reconnect again, but then when the school year would start... the drifting would start again.

Summer 2008 though, somehow we didn't seem to reconnect as well... and then over the course of the school year, my wife developed a very close friendship with another woman ... very close... during the winter our intimacy stops... down to zero... Perimenopause signs of course starting along the way in the past year but then kicking into high gear this spring about the same time as our intimacy stops.

The friendship developed as both woman were unhappy with their lives... The other woman has since separated from her husband. They never should have gotten married. In our case, we have been the happy family for YEARS... and have had an open relationship... although as I'm finding now, my wife has been bottling some things up for a while, the type of person who gives to everyone, helps everyone... great mother, volunteer, spouse, etc, etc. Never complaining about herself. (Sound familiar?) Perimenopause has hit her now like a ton of bricks and she's in a midlife crisis.

Amidst it all in the past year, the one person she has confided in is this other woman, and of course it has been mutual. They are two great gals, and very alike... When I was cut off, I started to wonder how close... then I was really worried when I saw them together as my wife was never happy around me, but would have that gleam in her eye, and a smile from ear to ear when either with the other woman or talking on the phone... Well I finally crack after several months of this, and little or no communication from my wife as to what's going on. I'm a computer geek so it was child's play to do the unthinkable, break my own person integrity and her trust, and I hack into her email... This was early July...

I ran out the door as I could speak, I couldn't breath... after reading the open love letters (emails) between the two, and the most recent ones mentioning the physical contact between the two... although not going to the extreme... yet... just the suggestions of it. So, I tell her, I apologize saying what I did, but also uncovering what they had done so far... Of course the result is she is upset I betrayed her... but talk about a downplay of what they have... as a friendship and a very good one.

So this has been going on now since July, and it hasn't stopped. How do I know? Yes, in the midst of trying to detach from her and knowing there is an emotional affair, it became consuming over the summertime, off and on, as to whether they stopped or not... child's play to find out. And it hasn't stopped...

The bright side of the story, I've finally detached... I've stopped the child's play as it is just not worth it any longer eating my heart out, caught in a trap between her not telling the truth about what she is doing behind my back and me betraying her trust as well. (So woman go ahead and criticize if you wish all you want... but when an affair is involved, it's hard to stay above board). Also, I love my wife dearly... I'd give my life for her well being... and I've had feelings of hurt over this one and cannot do a thing about it as she needs to discover herself, and I am cut out. Her feelings of true love gone, buried, I don't know... Definitely feelings now replaced by her attachment and affair with another woman...

But, also on the bright side, it's obvious that she still cares... As far as I can tell, she still respects our commitment... so even though she has strong feelings of love, I don't believe she has taken that final leap to ... well, you know... She is also now seeing a psychologist... to help discover who she really is.

So, now that I've detached (Finally!) I've regained my integrity... I accept that she is going through a rough time, and as a result of the events of the past year, this other woman is now closer to her heart, maybe closer than I have ever been. I also accept that I can't change that, and that I have no influence, power or otherwise and have to accept whatever the outcome is... I have thrown my complete support behind her by giving all the space she wants, only advising her I expect respect in return for our commitment... and I'll be patient until then...

FINALLY: The advice needed....

Do I have rocks in my head? I know I've had to deal with issues of insecurity over the summer and detachment, which I believe I have now... But am I to continue on this path of support and caring and letting be this relationship to allow it to either flourish resulting in the demise of our marriage or to hope it reduces on its own... hoping that by doing this my wife will eventually come back to me?

Is anyone out there dealing with an affair by their spouse... or any woman out there for which this story is similar and can advise me on what I need to do to regain her love, her trust, my trust in her?

I've read somewhere that a side effect of peri can also be a switch to homosexuality... or maybe an interest in the fairer sex... Is this true? Have some of you also experienced this? And does this go away?


Signed, a caring husband who needs some guidance...

Your gonna get so sick of me! When I'm too much just tell me to go away ok?

You said you have an open relationship? Is this in the sense that you can date others? To what degree? Before I go on please explain so I have a clearer idea because my answers or advice will greatly differ. Sorry if I seem nosy but I don't like to assume.

No, we don't have an open relationship.

We have both been clinging to one another our entire marriage. Actually even when a friend came along, I was very possessive (live and learn) and caused friendships to die...

Hence now my wife has a friendship she wants to keep, and with a woman... except that it has developed into one where physical contact is part of it, stopping short of going all the way, but with flirting, discussions of love, wanting to spend all their time together, even thoughts of living together, etc. This is all secretive though... i.e. I only found out about it because of my own insecurities... which I have gotten over now...

So moving forward, I don't know if I'm really on the right path to be aware that this is going on, unknown by my wife that I know to what extent it is going on, and essentially giving her the space to figure out on her own whether to come back to me or not. Any time I have brought up my concerns of the EA, it just gets flown back in my face as stop meddling again with my friendship as you are pushing me away...

So I bring it up, I push her away... I let things go... she may leave on her own... Hence the reason I've been thinking I might as well just back off, leave the peri run its course, and hope that our marriage survives intact...

So, no dating openly stated... and this is supposed to be a girlfriend... but seems to be developing into a mate...

PS. Please don't go away... I don't know who to talk to about this... So many years with one friend, my wife, and I'm feeling at times out in the cold with no one to talk to. This forum is turning out to be good therapy!

Wow, I feel so bad for you GoalieGuy. I have a sister who is trying to deal with her husband's emotional affair, which is tough enough. But the element of same sex affair is a horse of a different color! I personally have never heard of peri causing homosexuality. Not to say that it isnt possible.

Being a person who doesn't make friends easily, I've never felt close enough to anyone to bare my soul and my deepest darkest feelings to. But they say female friendships are much deeper than male friendships. Your wife's however seems a little over the top to me

All I can say right now is hang in there and don't give up hope. I know that talking it out in our forum is great therapy.

Let me ask you this: IF this "friend" were a man....would you feel differently? Tell me that before I go on. As you can tell I'm treading carefully so I don't offend you.

Dang it! Hit the wrong button! I wasn't quite done yet so on I go... In MY opinion (which really doesn't matter) an affair is an affair. The fact that you CALL it an affair should concern you. If this was a man, how long would you give them? Time to sleep together then say something? If YOU do not think this is an appropriate "friendship" and feel it threatens your marriage because she is taking her love and affection (not to mention devotion) to someone else, whether male or female, you have the right to ask her to stop. Menopause or not, she in my opinion is behaving badly. I have girlfriends who help me deal with my menopause. Does not mean I choose to sleep with them. She needs to learn what bounderies are and she needs to respect yours.

I'm sorry. I feel like I came off kind of snotty and that was NOT my intent. I'm a little bit on hyperdrive today and when I am like this I can get mouthy. No offense intended ok?

No worries! And no offense taken... I've developed a tough skin in the past several months! lol

A bit of a dilemma for me...

1) I have been the source of my wife losing real friends over the past several years... two in particular where my possessive behaviour resulted in these friends backing off and my wife feeling like a victim of it all, never being able to have a real friendship outside the house. This is definitely my bad and something that I corrected in the past year, by staying out of the way for her to have this new friend... At the time, she was not or at least I didn't know she was having marital problems. For that matter, I thought still that my wife and I were tight and had never even heard of perimenopause... Now with the pattern of being the break up guy for her friendships, and perimenopause, I have to tread very carefully as anything I do flies back in my face as yet another interference of her having a friendship... which now would serve to drive her away.

2) This has been developing for a while now, so it is not just a passing thing... The foundation of a friendship is there, and because of the emotional attachment now, they have become attached to one another. Throwing a bucket of cold water on it means they will only run away, but not stop...

3) I agree on the boundaries... I thought the only way out of this (and what I have done) is to say, do what you want, but respect our commitment to one another... i.e. if you're doing something behind closed doors that you can't do in public, then little sirens should go off in your head that you are behaving badly...

Because of #1 above though, I'm on thin ice whatever I do or say to intervene.

Is telling her "don't do behind closed doors what you won't do in public" going to stop this relationship from going further? Does your wife have that ability to go so far and stop? Does she want to? If she doesn't stop what will happen if they become sexual? Have you thought that far ahead? You'll want to be prepared. Think this through to the end. IF they become sexual, are you prepared you allow your wife to have an affair and stay with you? Will you and your wife remain sexual (ie diseases and such ARE a reality my friend) and can you handle that she is loving somebody else?

I still want to know. IF this were a man would you feel differently?

Lots of questions

Will the boundary stop her? Who knows? Only her...

Does she have that ability? So far, yes... She is receiving counseling as well... however I don't know if this has been brought up...

Does she want to stop? I don't know... Only she does... And she is not admitting to what extent they are in love or how far it has gone...

If it becomes sexual? That's it baby... She has made a choice at that point... I would find it hard to accept her back. We are not intimate right now anyways... just occasional hugs and a peck on the mouth morning and before bed... Not catching anything these days from her.

Forgot your question about if it were a man. However, if a man was involved? I would have noticed that a long time ago, and the emotional connection wouldn't have gotten as far and deep as it has... that's the problem... and does that change how I handle things at the moment... sadly, no... I would like to believe there is still a boundary there that hasn't been crossed and won't be crossed given her beliefs and upbringing... along with her telling me that she is not leaving and she'd be crazy to leave me... are these lies? I wish I knew... after so many years of a close relationship and honesty, I pray that she is truthful on that one. I can't say the same for the other woman though... Only know her superficially...

It's a hard situation you have my friend. The last piece of advice I will share is this. That your wife KNOWS what YOUR bounderies are (if she doesn't already of course) and that if it does become something more that you won't be able to handle it. If your wife is stating she will not leave you and would be crazy to then maybe just maybe this is a simple crush. With that in mind, crushes come and go but true love is so much stronger. She may still feel that with you. I am not the type to pick sides. That's not my nature but I am the type to try and spell out both sides...Your wife is doing one of two things. Either she is looking for something or running from something. In the end she may just end up doing a big circle and wind up right back in your arms! I wish you the best of luck and hope she comes around soon!

Thanks for your wishes! I have been thinking just that... a crush brought on by two women unhappy in their lives and consoling one another... She hasn't left yet... and I think if she wanted to, she would have by now... but realistically I think that she truly does have feelings for me although buried or forgotten while in this fog... When we are together, I certainly don't get the abuse others do... unless I bring up this relationship, if I smother or if I make statements that sound like I'm judging. I know I can be a difficult guy to handle sometimes and I've been taking advantage of this whole thing to look at myself, and stop judging others... a good thing.

As for the other woman, despite a resentment for this whole thing, I feel for her... she is going through a rough time with a husband who was not there for her at all throughout the marriage. Some things I just can't understand why a person would behave in the way they did... even as he was heading out the door, she was subject to sexual harassment. Now she is alone at home with her kids every other week... a lot of time to be alone... and who is she grasping at? My wife... I don't think she is doing it on purpose necessarily as my wife is clinging to her as well to get through peri... Tough situation with me on the sidelines...

I'm ok though... I had a summer from hell, and for self preservation, I learned about detachment and applied it... I can finally say after 6 weeks or so of trying, I have finally detached to the point that I can cope with just about anything... I do miss her though... tremendously... and hope that she comes around soon, but I'm afraid the signs are showing that it will take a while for her to figure things out... months... maybe a year or two?

Thanks for listening, and talking...I appreciate it...

Wow I feel for you big time. Me being me I'd run for the hills. My Brother-in-law is still living with my hubby's sister and he's had a boyfriend for years and years. I don't know if she knows or not, but I'm telling you there's know way he'd come home to me and have sex with me after being with another man. Yuck. They've had 5 kids one died at birth and I swear he's hung around for the money as my hubby's family is wealthy. Why give up the cottage, cars and vacations when you can have your cake and eat it too. You need love, go find some. Hugs Jilleo

I'm sorry you are going through this but in my opinion she has already crossed the line. While it's true that women are going to feel more comfortable talking with other women about meno (and other things) than they would with their spouse it seems as though they are dipping their toes in dangerous waters.

It doesn't matter if they are the same sex or different sex, it doesn't even matter why they gravitate towards one another, if she respects her marriage vows she will spend her energy protecting them. She's not. In peri we go through a lot of different emotions, a lot of different issues, life is hard and it's easy to want to be self-centered however... we are still grownups and we have to make grownup choices. We have to be accountable for the choices we make and there are consequences for our actions. Continuing in this vein is a slow death for your relationship. If you wait it out, won't it build resentment in you? If you force her out of the relationship she will resent you. I'd suggest you go to counseling with her.

I do hope the two of you can work this out and work it out quickly.

PS.. If I thought my husband was having an affair I'd be snooping too and I wouldn't apologize for it.

Her individual counseling just started... she is groping with the conflict... otherwise she would have gone much further beyond the line I expect... I look at it like a kind of dance in a way... this type of closeness is new to them and even they are not sure what this type of friendship means... and yes, I agree they have crossed the line... but they cross it, they jump back and realize it's wrong, then they jump across it again... You would think they are skipping rope or playing hopscotch! I don't care about her though, more what my wife is doing... and so far she has been ... I think... mindful of our vows... Taking a step to admit to having issues which she has done is good step in the right direction... now to see a psychologist is a major step forward...

I think this is why I've been holding on and not blowing up on this... The psych she is seeing is not known for breaking up couples, but rather supportive of working through the issues... I'm hopeful that this person will have a positive influence on her...

Thanks for your wishes... I also hope this will not last!

Good Luck to you Goalie Guy

My wife has been seeing a therapist since this process started. She is going over things that happened many years ago before I came into her life. These items were settled years ago and now these issues have somehow become associated with me. I have taken the place of her parent. Interesting story, I was reading a discussion regarding the wife equating her husband to being a jailer in a peri MLC situation. I asked my wife if I was her jailer and she said no, my parent. That's when I decided I needed to detach even further. As I continue to detach, she is acting a little different and seems to be ramping up her activities trying to impact me. I told last week that I love her and she needs to determine what she is dealing with. Since then I have showed little emotion and discuss issues involving our schedule or kids.

I can understand how detachment can become internalized and come to a point that I lose my feelings for her, especially in the way her feelings for me have basically vanished. I find myself dwelling on whether this can go on for up to ten years.

I now understand the sense of a close external community that my parents had when I grew up. Unfortunately, I have moved a few times and left friends and family behind. I understand how old friends can be a great coping mechanism in this situation. I still contact a few by phone, but have lost track of the majority over the years.

Thanks for the wishes Beingpatient. Sounds like we're in the same boat ...

A JAILOR!!! A PARENT!!! Oh man does that make sense... For the past month and more she has that feeling of being constantly watched, monitored, etc, etc, etc... She is stressed out from this even though I try to stay away and give her space and tell her she's free to do whatever... aside of course from telling her (again this morning) my feelings about our vows and not to cross the line... I've pretty much backed off altogether much the same... casual chats only on the day to day stuff. Once and a while though these little things nag at her as though she is being watched or walking on eggshells. I mentioned to her that it was tough to see her smile from ear to ear when talking on the phone with "the other woman", and even with other friends... then made the mistake of asking if she smiles when she talks to me on the phone... (as she rarely does when she sees me... Lukewarm reception at best...) Flew back in my face as "you're stressing me... you're always watching me..." Man! She does think I'm her jailor or a parent or something! That would also explain the evasion to her friend... who is not a jailor to her...

Clearly another sign to continue to just back off... although I don't know much further away I can get... and like you I don't know how long I can last or if bit by bit my feelings for her will disappear... if I detach any more than I have...

I have one thing on my mind to get to right now... HOCKEY SEASON!!! I start league play on Wednesday... Will be good to see the lads, share a few laughs, and have a few cold ones before.... oops... I mean after the game!

Hang in there!

Goalie Guy


There's not a lot of hockey in Southern California, but I do have my outdoor activities. I have to keep it somewhat muted becasue if one of her friends places me, I in deep dog doo. One thing you may want to adjust is to stop telling her and just do it. The more you tell her something, the more the jailor comes to her mind. I would think also telling her might make her feel manipulated. My wife has improved over the past few days. I was reading an article on my computer about detaching. My wife needed to print something and asked to use my computer, actually told me she was going to use it. First thing to pop up was the article on detaching. She's still cranky, but a little more communicative. I'll keep you informed on whether this contnues to show progress.


Good Luck to you

Hello GoalieGuy,

Your story is similar to a friend of mine. Sadly, my friend who was married, decided to get really close to her girlfriend. As couples we all got together during football games and parties. I thought she was fairly happily married, I never saw it coming. All of us hung out and knew each other ( at least I thought we did), we did all the usual girl talk. She lied to everyone, I think that is what hurt me the most in this story.

The husband must have seen SIGNS that she was not romantically involved with him, infact she changed gears and made excuses galore to him. This went on for perhaps 2 years, I don't think she wanted to give up her cush lifestyle, but eventually it all came out, he was the LAST to know the truth.

Slowly, she made excuses, she needed her space, she moved out and wanted some time to FIND herself, etc.... Really she was having an affair, full blown affair. He still didn't want to believe it, but in the end, he filed for divorce. She is still with women, has had several others now. It is a shocking story, so you must be careful, it doesn't matter if it is only a WOMAN, it is the same thing as if it were a man, it is still giving yourself, emotions over to another.....do you get that???

Now I know that your situation is not the exact same thing as my friends. But you stated that they were caught writing "love letter" things to each other??? Let me tell you, women who are straight don't do that.....nope.

Your problem here could be more than just perimenopause. She could be having a midlife crisis and that could be very serious.

I was sick for a long time over what happened to my "friends" marriage. I don't know how it could have been saved, I've thought a lot about it. I feel badly for you, I hope for the best for your sake.

Juliann

Thanks.

When you say "stop telling her and just do it" do you mean to stop telling her about the affair, let it go and give her space? I'm kinda in the throws of that right now... and sent her a note on the prison/jailor thing. She told me there is truth in it... however she is a little burnt out this weekend so wants to talk when she's feeling a bit better.

Thanks for your wishes!

Yes, she is in a midlife crisis... although she has a straight head for the most part, and is managing it... She is seeing a psychologist now, and as well is in to see the doctor this week on the results of her bloodwork. So lots of positive steps...

I've pretty much said what I have to say to her now on this whole thing... and told her that love letters are not what friends do... nor physical contact other than the odd hug... Also told her that what is past is past, and moving forward she knows what I expect... which I don't think is unreasonable...

So... the ball is in her court now to manage her "friendship"... and get through this...

I hope all turns out well... but I'm growing a thicker skin as well too...

Apparently I'm feeling different today because you may just see me flip gears. Like I said before I point out facts...good and bad so I tend to be quite blunt sometimes. For that I apologize.

I am getting the impression that you believe this therapist is a magic bullet. Putting so much faith in one person is very risky.

Tell me this. If you were to tell you wife that the so called friendship she has with this other woman is making you uncomfortable in your relationship with her and feel that emotional bounderies have been breached because of the love letters you found (and that IS a breach) and you wanted her to stop seeing this other woman for the sake of your marriage...would she?

Why is your wife not being held accountable for her actions. By the way her actions at the moment ARE wrong. Would you get away with all this is the roles were reversed and it was you and another woman or man?

Just things to think about. Trust me, we may not sound like we care sometimes but we really really do!

Hi there, GoalieGuy,

I have been following this thread for a few days, but have not replied. I think that you are a wonderful person and that you wife is is playing with fire. Can anyone play with fire and not get burned? I, too think that she should be held accountable for her actions.

If I were in your shoes, I would confront my hubby and blow up his world. I would not spend countless days, weeks, or years bringing this to a stop, regardless of what might happen. I would insist on a him making a choice...pronto. I would not tolerate

The "finding one's self" and "needing space" is a typical ploy. It means that, "I want out." How many times in the dating world have you heard..."I just need a little time." LOL!

One thing that I have noticed is a contagious disease called divorce. When a friend gets divorced or is going through a divorce, it often makes others decide that they are unhappy, too. Listening daily to the unjust hurts of another, will often cause one to identify with them. This type of thinking, unchecked, leads downhill.

I watched one neighborhood play musical houses. If it were not so heartbreaking, it would have been funny. Four close couples on one street ended up divorced and remarried. They exchanged partners...legally. All had young children. It was a mess! ...and in the end, I don't think that any of them were happy. They ended up not being friends and shuffling kids.
The grass always looks greener.....

By the way, you are just the type of man that many women HUNT. You are currently stable, caring, and have a job & etc. I hope you realize that you "easy pickings." All a woman has to do is to be nice to you. We, just as Eve, have our ways. LOL! We are so sneaky...and of course, innocent. LOL! Please guard your heart.

Shebee

Meno does not make us unfaithful or gay, only crazy....

The affair is something you need to communicate with her about. I'm strictly talking about the detachment like asking her whether she smiles when she talks to you on the phone. This shows her that your amxious and needy. I know detachment is really difficult especially when she says something that may set you off. With regard to the other women, that's something that needs to be addressed. I have very little experience in this area and would tend not to provide direct advice. My suggestion would be to work through her therapist and see what advice the therapist provides or maybe communicate about these issues with your wife in front of a therapist. Therapists are all different. We had one was ready to lead us into divorce after the first meeting. It sounds like you have a good one.

As part of my detachment process, when I say something to my wife, it's a direct statement about the kids or an action (shopping). If I talk about feelings, her health, our relationship or holding her accountable for something, her emotions cause her to misconstrue the intended message and it puts her into a defensive posture. I've also decided that most times, I'm dealing with a 14 year old teenage girl and I'm communicating with emotions, not reason. You never know how your intended message is being received.

Finally, the one thing that has really helped me was getting a good nights sleep. I, like you was staying up nights trying to analyze the days events, or wondering why is this happening to me. As a form of detaching, I've worked on keeping my head clear at night to get a get enough sleep and maintain a reasonable frame of mind during the day. Having enough sleep keeps you in emotional control.


Good luck to you

"meno does not make us unfaithful or gay, just crazy" BINGO BINGO BINGO!!! I am still held accountable for EVERYTHING I do and I would not DREAM of becoming emotionally, physically or sexually involved with another. I WOULD dream of KILLING the husband I have at times and have even plotted out how to the letter but I would never actually DO it! I'm not bashing you my friend...I just do want to see your wife use "menopause" as her excuse to have an affair. It's a copout. This obviously really bothers you. Why do you tolerate it? (climbing down off my soapbox now...can you say too much coffee??? Sorry if I'm being abrupt.)

Meant DON'T want to see your wife use meno as an excuse. Stupid fingers don't wanna work!

One thing that I want to add, "please consider this", having an affair within a marriage always start's with the line that it is ONLY an emotional affair. The actual "guilt and shame" prevents them from coming out with the whole truth. It can be an endless season of lies upon lies to ease the guilt and face the consequences of everyone finding out. Somehow people who have affairs "think" that they can escape this part of the responsibility.

When people have affairs, they feel guilt and shame, they don't want to face the family and friends and be seen as a "bad" person. It has nothing to do with being a sensible person, even the best people can fall prey to their lusts in life for something better or different. Then you add in the "gay" factor and the shame can be even more severe. Either way, it's a breach of marriage.

I know this is a lot for you to take in.....if she is now deciding that she is "gay" but just not telling you truthfully, then what do you think will become of your relationship? Have you asked her if she is now "gay"?? Does she completely deny this or avoid really answering the question, look at her response to this.

It's not just about growing thick skin, it's about finding out what she REALLY wants now that she has opened herself up to this "new" area. I'm sure this is very painful for you, I think you are hoping that she is just confused and will come to her senses, but I fear that more lurks beneath all of this. Take care.

Juliann

Hi Goalie Guy,

No, I don't think you have rocks in your head, I think you have love in your heart. You may have made some mistakes and of course there is always two sides to a story and we can't hear the other side, your wife's.

However, that said... and this is just another perspective I could be way off base. Maybe your wife has had these feelings for women her whole life and submerged them. You said you guys were intertwined and that you chased away other women friends from her, that you were possessive of her. Do you think on some level you had an inkling? She feeling "guilty" her whole life, perhaps thinking she was wrong for feeling that way, allowed the friends to be pushed away and clung tighter to you in the hopes that she could push those feelings farther down. She was the "perfect wife and mother, did for others tirelessly etc. When we go through peri/meno, it doesn't justify an affair, but, sometimes, it causes us to redefine who we are and because there is an element of self absorbtion (sp?) in that, a lot of pushed down feelings surface and we are forced to confront them, some of the barriers we have in place to keep us self contained over the years, the walls we built up for whatever particular reason, seem easier to break down. Many marriages get pushed to the breaking point, many survive as long as the foundation is truly strong and no weapons are used (a little humor injected here). In the end and I don't know how your's will end, it may not be that any one person is the bad guy or bad woman. it may be just what is. It could be a temporary thing with your wife and this woman. People do go through mid life crises and empathy and understanding from a woman could be that soft place for her to land for now. I don't know. However, it just is not okay to put someone who loves you through this kind of emotional upheaval just because she doesn't know who she is right now, she needs to start getting honest with herself and you sooner rather than later. I know when my 1st marriage was falling a part I always got defensive with my ex when he would question me about stuff, I would turn it on him. Now mind you, he was a very critical, very high strung man, we had some real issues. I tried for many years because I knew he loved me and felt guilty that I just was falling further and further away but I was blurring the lines a bit myself, flirting, going out dancing. I was young though, still wanted to have fun, he was way more serious and never really happy (but I guess I wasn't so happy either). But, he ****** the life out of me with his personality. Basically not a bad man, he loved me, but, we just were never really a match from the beginning, it became a power struggle with us (the parent/child thing). He never stopped me from doing things or having friends, but, nothing I ever did was right, he would say I always did things to annoy him or piss him off on purpose, even though I over thought everything I did just because I didn't want to listen to him scream. I was never afraid of him, he wouldn't have physically hurt me. But, emotionally, it was just draining. He would know he pushed me too far at times and apologize but then start up again. He would never have left me, I finally had to do it. I couldn't live with my duplicity or my apathy anymore. It killed him but he is alive and well married again with a baby and is with a women who can deal with him. We are now friends, if you can believe that. I married him because he represented what I thought I should have what would make me "fit" in with the world, to give me legitimacy. I came from foster homes and all kinds of other cr@p. I will not say it didn't take me many many years after the divorce to finally get it right but I did (I had my own baggage to deal with). I know you have a lot invested in your marriage and I don't even know you but don't be willing to let this go on for years and years. If it doesn't right itself and you guys can't recommit to each other within a certain amount of time. Take your life back and move forward, life goes on and good things can happen out of bad. I know this from personal experience. I hope I didn't over step myself. I wish you well. Take care Mich

We didn't scare you off did we?

Wow! I'm getting overwhelmed! I appreciate all the ideas and suggestions coming in today, and support!

I'll try to chip away at some of the questions and points people have suggested:

The Therapist: I don't think the therapist is a magic bullet to my happiness... I rather see it as someone in a position of trust who can provide my wife with the right questions to ask herself what she wants out of life moving forward. She isn't asking me about this... and really shouldn't. So really at this point, I don't know what she wants... she is coming out with new suppressed feelings every other day... Today we were in Church together, like every Sunday. Towards the end of the ceremony, the priest invites all to exchange a sign of peace. We have been in the habit for the last 10 years or so to shake hands, a peck on the mouth and wish each other peace... lo and behold, today was a handshake followed by a "I've never been comfortable with public displays of affection (pda)"... i.e. the end of the peck... I suppose this is good as she's discovering these things about herself, and credible as she has always been reserved and not liked any type of pda. Although I do wonder... In any event, I'm hoping the therapist will pull more out of her... And yes, I realize that it may not be the fairy book ending I would like it to be...

Accountability for the emotional affair and the possible switch of sexual orientation: I find the whole notion of an "emotional affair" is very subjective to start with. When your spouse hits the sack with someone else, it's pretty cut and dry.... emotions are another story... The email content talks of love and other words that lead to thinking of an emotional affair... and that is my belief. The physical contact to date is largely subjective in nature given that my wife admitted to holding hands, giving a massage for her to relax, and legs casually touching, etc. The remainder comes from flirting in emails for the most part, and content obtained surreptitiously. (Now there's a $20 word I needed the dictionary for!) So touchy to accuse outright of what my beliefs are from a lot of evidence taken from behind her back... (ok, this is where the sharks eat me alive )

So notwithstanding the lack of hard evidence... yes, today I stood my ground, and asked her several questions... and yes, several times the defensive mode came up... I think I managed to work around it though... and got through with my points on all.

- Sexual orientation? She looked me straight in the eye and said no way am I becoming a lesbian. Reflecting (as suggested in one response) on our time together, this topic has come up before and she has always been disgusted by the thought of two woman together... I read in a few spots though that a change in sexual orientation has happened during peri... I don't know if it is medical though or a pre-disposition to come out of the closet after several years.

- Do you love her? Went a little ballistic on that question citing that I always bring it up, etc etc. We are very close friends, etc, etc. Eye contact here was good by the way... really good. She is either truthful or a great actress who was never picked up by Hollywood... (or I'm just too close and blinded.... the sharks are circling again! ) Told her about my feelings that she is having an EA but her jets were hot. Calmed down eventually and we had a discussion on past history of me standing in the way of friendships, because of the nature of our marriage (both of us were clingy.... I gave up lots of guy outings I would have liked to have had for sports, etc much the same way she compromised over the years.) In the end, only an admittance of loving a friend... not loving a lover... Ok, she knows I'm not comfortable with it... and says its always the same story I come up with and my imagination is running wild and perceptions are wrong... "defense mode is activated here"... Anyways... I don't have hard proof and not ready to try to blow the top off... so I reiterated our commitment and didn't quite read the riot act.

- In the end, as I tried to get her to drop defenses, calm down, etc... I reiterated the trust we needed to re-establish and lay my confidence in her with the help she is seeking to fix her problems... and that I was there to help as much as I can... Finally that our home, which she has considered as a prison, is a place for all to relax and be themselves... I told her I'm not watching her... all in her head... and although I probably will never be impartial to anything going on, for the most part, I'm done with any snooping and she can either fix things, or hang herself while I get on with my well being.

Several positive outcomes:

- She appreciates the fact that I have been doing the majority of cooking and several household chores, taking the heat off of her in several areas... and a new computer that I built for her personal use hidden away so that she has complete privacy to undertake studies, and write emails to whoever she wants... Ok, now the sharks are closing in! She just can't respond emotionally at this point due to the emptiness and overwhelming bombardment coming at for from all sides for work, being a mother, responding to family, friends, everything... hardly any time for the old pair of slippers...

- She actually recognizes that bit by bit over the past few months, I have gotten further and further along in detaching. And that we didn't really have a prison environment. For instance, when she was upset today she said that she felt watched because whenever she was in her email (computer in the kitchen) I would roll my eyes, look upset, sigh, etc. I asked her in the past 3 weeks when I had done that... that I couldn't care less about her time on the computer now ... then she realized I hadn't sighed, looked over her shoulders, etc in the recent past and she realized that she was referring to events that took place in July when things blew up... then finally figured out that many of her gripes in the feelings of imprisonment were also things that had long since gone away yet she hadn't really taken stock recently.

- She broke down at the end of our conversation, crying about hating perimenopause... not asking for it... wondering if she should just ignore everything, even the fact she doesn't know who she is, and just resume life doing things for everyone else and not for her... we talked through it, gently supporting her along the way to not compromise her happiness and need to "find herself"... again I'll be there to help you along, give you the space you need, make sure you don't feel like you are in a prison here... etc. Ok sharks... I may be a guppy but I pack a mean punch...

- Finally, several hours later as we both went about the daily business and caught up in the evening, I pop my head in the doorway to give her an update on what the kids are up to... she says "oh... thanks for taking care of everything downstairs... I was just writing you an email..." Shortly thereafter, I receive a thank you for setting up the computer, for everything I've been doing around the house... AND an apology for her messed up mind, creating confusion, and for not seeking assistance sooner...

This is the end of a good and overall positive day... Although I agree with several points... to keep my guard up ... and not to believe necessarily that the outcome will be wedded bliss again... but personal happiness.

Thanks again all for your perspective on this trying situation. I truly appreciate reading your candid comments, your thoughts on what alternatives exist, what outcomes are possible, what issues I may have overlooked or not considered!

Naw! I am extremely pleased to have found a place where I can share with so many, and get complete honesty back... that's what I was looking for... Many thanks!!!!

QUOTE (ladybugsforu @ Sep 13 2009, 08:30 PM)
We didn't scare you off did we?





Goalie...are you kidding?


We beat you up pretty bad. LOL!




What you stated is fact: You get complete honesty.


Do you have a brother? I have a sister. LOL!
Shebee

Well, i for one will not throw you to the sharks. It sounds like you had a communicative day with your wife, which is a good thing. I won't rain on your parade for now, lol. My spidey senses are tingling, not sure why. I'm going to reserve commenting on the above and see how things progress with you and your wife as you continue to post. I only wish you well. I think you are doing a lot right. None of us on this forum know you or your wife. We offer insights and perspective based on your written words. You and your wife have history together, you not us are the ultimate gauge for what is you choose to do, it is after all your life. That said, I'm glad that you are getting things out of our posts that are helping you and supporting you. As they say in 12 step programs -- take what you like and leave the rest. Keep on keeping on.... (I know its an oldie, lol) Mich

Thanks Mich... My spider senses are still tingling too... but for now I'm still trying to keep with the program and get on with my life and support the kids... while keeping a watchful eye...

Also as you say, your perceptions and input are all based on... well, my perceptions and ability (or lack thereof) to write them down... Notwithstanding, I am getting great things out of the posts... Including learning about that song! An oldie for some maybe... but new to me!

You seem calmer today. I have a feeling communication is a coming! Talk, talk and talk some more. Talk until you are blue in the face, but if you love this woman...NEVER give up. People can change for the worse sometimes, but you know what? They can turn back around too..and if people who love them are not there to catch them...it's a really hard fall.

We all would love a happy ending, we all love the notion if you fight hard enough things will work out. I say give it all you can until you can't anymore. It would be counter productive to NEVER give up if the other person has exited the relationship emotionally even if they are physically there, if talk does match action then it is all false. To me the spouse acting out has a personal agenda that is more about that person than about the couple. Forget the words people say, in my opinion it is their actions that are the most telling. I had a man tell me he loved me but he treated me hatefully for 12 years. I was one of those who was not going to give up and I didn't. If I had not given up I would have continued down his road of self destruction with him, dragging my child down too. Sometimes as much as you may love someone that isn't always enough. I hope that Goalie Guy get's his happy ending and his wife comes out of her funk. I think there is more going on here with her than simple peri but that's just a guess. Who really knows, only Goalie Guys does. It is easy for me to give advice because I am not emotionally involved, no one could tell me what to do, I knew what I needed to do, but, I had to be ready to look at what was and not what I wished it was and move on. It took me 12 years. Obviously, my sitch was a bit different than his but it still comes to the same thing. How much is enough until it's just not enough anymore? You give some wonderful advice Ladybugs, I guess the NEVER give up hit something in me, lol...I just wanted to give another perspective, I hope you don't mind.

DARN DARN DARN.... "If talk DOES NOT match action"...... I hate these darn typos!!!!!!

I take no offense. We all have our opinions but I have lived it. I spent 18 years with a man who was a raging alcoholic, drug abuser and smoker. All I ever wanted from him was to be a decent wage earner and not drink or use drugs. I went through heck for this man. Some would call it a waste of 18 years but I KNEW he would do this one day and one day he stopped. He needed help and he got it. I now have the man of my dreams. He is all I ever wanted in a man and I am so glad I fought. My dad did not raise a quitter and my marriage is living proof. THAT's why I say never give up.

Sorry, that sounded incredibly self rightious. I'm not like that. Your right, sometimes things simply don't work out and it IS better to give up and move on. I don't necessarily believe actions speak louder than words but to each his own. My point was this man loves his wife. It is obvious. I was simply trying to support his decision to stay and fight for the love of his life. Call me old fashioned.

Maybe that's my problem? I don't smoke, don't use drugs, only drink socially. I've made great wages over the years... and never, ever, ever would I strike a woman, let alone my wife! I'm in great physical shape, jog about 4 or 5 miles every two days and in my ideal weight zone (5'10" and around 180 lbs). Go to church every Sunday. Volunteer my time to the community. I like to think I'm a good father, taking care of my kids lots, showing 'em stuff and all. Up until recently, I thought I was a good husband... and actually I know I am despite being too much of a workaholic in the past. I cook, wash dishes, clean the house, occasionally I'll do the ironing, I work on home improvement projects (built a deck this summer around the pool and now doing a bathroom reno), etc, etc, etc... Definitely not a couch potato... hardly watch tv except a few games like Superbowl, Stanley Cup Playoffs,etc. Maybe the last little while though more I've become more of a computer addict or really a Power Surge addict... but only to figure out what to do to love my wife even more!

That's it! That's the problem! I'm already house broken! There's no challenge any more! No fixing that's needed! Maybe that's why she's so distant... she needs a new man (or woman in this case) to break in!!!

ok, tongue in cheek here and not trying to rib you ladybugsforu And yes, although a bit of a bad spell for a few hours, I'm for the most part remaining upbeat, and trying not to take anything personally from her behaviour... and being patient... I often wonder though just how deep my love is... and my patience... You are absolutely incredible for hanging in for 18 years to find the man hidden behind all that! Although I can last for a while, months, a few years maybe... I doubt I'll be around for 18 years of this...

No worries, my ex had been a drug abuser, alcoholic, rager for years before I met him so this wasn't new behavior on his part. I met him through a friend who was in a 12 step program which he was also attending at the time (that should have been my first red flag). He showed his colors pretty early on but I got pregnant by him early on (very responsible of me, but, I adore my son) and being a single Mom scared me I guess more than he did. I like you believed that "deep down" there was a good guy there. I came from foster homes and had my empty places inside. Maybe that was our connection, he also had a bad childhood, I felt for the hurt boy inside. We were perfectly dysfunctional together, we were a perfect match for all the wrong reasons. Yet, I stayed, and stayed, stayed through verbal abuse, physical abuse and allowed my son to witness all of this. It was wrong of me as a mother. I will have to say that I never loved him really, I was bonded to him for whatever reason but I never loved him after the first 6 months. His brother was the same way, but, his wife hung in there and is still there after years of his alcohol abuse and physical abuse. She is still with him. She never seemed happy but she stayed and said she loved him. I hear he has stopped and I have seen him and he seems different, so i guess time will tell for them. I know she will never leave no matter what. The funny/bittersweet thing is that my ex stopped drinking/drugging about a year or so ago and actually is a very nice and funny guy, we talk a lot, I have forgiven him. I am glad I am not with him he was not right for me but I guess what I sensed about him was true, just came around too late for us. He also just had surgery for colon cancer, life is so precious that you can't take it lightly and not live it to the fullest in healthy ways, surrounding yourself with good people.

I am thrilled your story had a happy ending, I am sure you know as well as I do that with addiction the odds are against that kind of thing. There is so much relapsing, it's sad. You husband is one that beat the odds. BTW my father was a heroin, alcoholic and whatever else addict until he was 50, hence, why I was in foster homes and probably my I gravitated toward my ex (though I always thought I would be smarter than that, goes to show you, lol). He has been sober 22 years now. Another one who beat the odds. I know all about the affects of addiction and like you have lived it, in my case in my childhood as well as my adulthood. '

Sorry I hope I don't sound all self righteous (which you didn't). I am not one to give up easily and I don't think I did. You my dear must be a saint and I am so happy your husband proved your faith in him was justified. He is very very very lucky and I'm sure he knows that.

((((hugs))))
Mich

Nope, not a saint...just stubborn I think! Goalieguy, just remember this will not LAST for the next 18 years. Menopause DOES pass. What if after all this is over she returns to the same girl you fell in love with? Wanna miss that? I am NOT telling you what you should do (or at least not trying to!). I don't know the whole story and then would not try to tell you what you should do. Men wanting to bail (and I know you don't) is no different that the women in meno going "I want out, you smother me, blah blah blah". There's a limit to the abuse we take during all of this. There's a limit to the self destruction mode we allow ourselves to be put in and there is a limit to the turmoil meno produces for both the husband and the wife. I think it's about drawing lines and saying "I am in control of my menopause, it is not in control of me". It is WAY to easy to let this thing swallow you whole and during the first two years for me it did...and I almost lost those closest to me because of it. Menopause has a way of taking over the lives of an entire family unit if you let it. It becomes much easier when you stop trying to analyze it and just accept it is happening. Truth is this: Either we will survive meno and get through it or we won't. Nobody knows how we will be on the other side of menopause...we just pray we are better for it.

You're right, I don't want to bail at all and I realize it won't last THAT long. I really don't want to miss a minute of being with her! I just wonder sometimes how long one can endure this... and not to sound like poor little GoalieGuy... I realize that it is nothing in comparison to what my wife is going through right now... between dealing with perimenopause and a midlife crisis... She certainly didn't ask for this to happen and much like me, she was caught by surprise by all and neither of us are really sure when it started... I've noticed her behavioural changes now for at least the past 6 months, and can recall even a year ago a lot of mood swings.

Water under the bridge now. I've pretty much reached the point now where I've accepted everything... except the one thing... this "friendship"... It is right now my downfall to being detached and coping completely... hence the start of this whole thread and the EA and what to do and questioning if I'm doing the right thing ... If it were just menopause, I think I would be much better at coping... just feel somedays like we are in the perfect storm between all three things hitting at once... oh... four things... I forgot to mention maybe... I was laid off over 5 months ago... (luckily saw it coming so we have a good nest egg to last another while) With no job and a spouse who's having difficulties of her own, AND taking her emotions elsewhere, leaves a guy with too much time to just think... Which is what I spent the better part of the summer doing...

Gradually the analyzing and the urge to "fix things" has been reducing... and is now just an occasional thing... Mostly focused on the "am I doing the right thing" at this point... Your insights, comments, ideas, own experiences have helped me work through this last issue for me, and I can't thank you enough. At least for now, I am confident I can deal with what's happening, accepting 95% of the situation, continuing to support my beautiful wife whom I adore, while taking care of myself and the family... while being mindful of the EA... but being consumed by it...

Soooo..... I apologize for taking up so much "air time" (or disk space on the server) on this topic, and ready to move on. I will repost down the road if you wish with updates once and a while... regardless of the outcome of our marriage...

All the best to everyone!

I'm happy your finding your way. Please do post down the road and let us know all is well! I wish you the VERY best!

Thanks... ooops also a typo... meant to say NOT being consumed by the EA.

You have not taken up too much disc space, please don't think that. That's why they made a thread specifically for men going through peri/meno and all that that means with their spouses or significant others. Please feel free to come here anytime. I know it's difficult to navigate these kinds of things. It's cool that you can get different women's perspectives here. You may be done ruminating about it which I can understand. You can only analyze it and talk about things so much before you need to step back for a while and focus on other stuff, maybe even throw some fun stuff in there.

Take care,
Mich

your fooling your-self if you think this is just a "friendship", just prepare your self for that reality

It has been a while, and I feel the need to say a few things... sorry... a lot of things... Please feel free to punch holes into my thoughts... That's why I feel the need to do this.

In short, I believe we are on the edge of the cliff... My wife has been seeing the psychologist now, and two appointments later, I think she is starting to realize that things cannot continue as they are... I think the psych beat her up a little last time to come to realize and focus her thoughts as to what she wants out of life and figure it out sooner than later. My wife has opened up a little, and says she needs to tell me things... but needs to find the words and the time to do it... Last night when she talked about the friendship, she actually said ‘maybe it's love’ when describing it… It’s a start…

Part of her opening up may also be coming from my own impatience over this affair (I'm dropping the Emotional part... and calling it what I believe it is) and telling her that she needs to make a decision. Also I have become an emotional roller coaster over the past two weeks as my patience has been growing thinner. And she knows it… The other woman can’t even face me… Nor I her… Funny though how everyone knows that everyone knows… but no one is saying anything openly… (Well I have and have just gotten shot down all the time) My wife knows the onus is on her though to come clean.

My wife is in a fog. She is struggling still to remember things, to get through the day. She is very much in love with the other woman, who I expect will come out of the closet. Problem though is my wife is struggling with this while in this fog, and wondering if she is in fact a lesbian or not… I honestly have not seen the signs of this at all over the years. Even the viewing in movies with two girls kissing grossed her out. I think now that she has fallen in love with a woman at the same time as her hormones have gone crazy have made her very confused. And I just wonder when the fog clears if that will make a difference or not… What I think doesn’t matter much though… It’s all about her and despite my efforts to detach; I’m still feeling as though my heart is slowly bleeding.

I’ve been more than supportive, and have given her plenty of opportunities to come clean. She has gone so far down this path though, it is now a HUGE burden for her to come clean. This weekend when she went out to our front porch to escape, I joined her with a ‘prepared statement’ (so I wouldn’t screw it up) to her to try to ease the pressure or reduce that burden… Largely because lately we are both struggling and her more so as she doesn’t want to hurt me… and I expect is afraid of my reaction to what she has to say… I know, it doesn’t help that on top of what she is going through, she has to deal with her husband… however when having an affair I would think that the rules need to be adjusted…

Anyways… I told her that she can tell me anything… absolutely ANYTHING… at this point… including (insert list of everything from loving the woman to being a lesbian to wanting a divorce, etc) and I wouldn’t be angry with her… however if she makes any decisions, she will have to accept her responsibilities and any consequences of her decisions. I told her I would survive without her, and she would without me… but expressed for the millionth time… that I love her dearly and what I want out of life more than anything else is to be with her… I offered her my unconditional love once again, and an opportunity to rebuild our marriage… also that it would not be easy, but all we need to do is take that first step together and go from there…

So, this week, pins and needles… She wants to see her therapist first… and then she has things to tell me … which for the most part I think we all know what she will say… well at least I hope she will come clean… Then at least we can talk about where we are going… although that part I don’t think she will be capable of doing that because of this fog…

From all indications though that many suggest, now is not a time for rash decisions… so correct me if I’m wrong, but if she wants out, I’ll point out the door… but I can’t fathom myself rolling over and separating... allowing a rash decision to be made and accepted. I’m certainly not leaving my home nor are the kids. She’ll have to do that herself. And she will have to start any proceedings… And she may still… Despite my offer to start over…

Oh, and to further add to the roller coaster ride and state of confusion… and why I don’t think she will be inclined to leave right now… Her primary focus right now is to complete a 2 year part time College program she has undertaken… And this one is critical. She has abandoned at least 3 similar part time education programs in the time we’ve been together… three failures that are burning a hole in her mind… And if she abandons this one as well, or fails at it, her already fragile self-esteem will tank.

As if there are enough things for her to think about between our marriage that she believes was already going downhill (and hopefully she doesn’t think it was dead), and her affair, her coming to grips as to whether she is a lesbian or not, her whole core self esteem is in question. I can’t see her doing anything but taking a break from all relationships… including the girlfriend… for her to cope with what she is going through…

So, I suppose some will understand why I haven’t taken a hard-line approach on this affaire to stop or get out of my life. And why I continue to try to get her to come clean and move forward with her. I really feel for the rough time she is going through and actually feel bad when I put my own self-interests first or have a moment of weakness and cannot put on a mask of self confidence. Practically, she's messed up. She even mentioned yesterday that she doesn't deserve me...

There is still a chance for a happy ending… but it won’t be anytime soon… A lot of bagage to deal with... a lot...

And amidst all of this, if she wants to continue the other relationship AND stay in the house… I am not sure how I am going to deal with that…

Thanks for reading this episode of 'How the EA turns'...

Hang in there Goalie. I hope it all works out how you want it to.

I just have to say... there is no room in a marriage for a 3rd person. Don't let your own fears get in the way of what it is you need to make you happy. Be firm in what you need from this relationship.

GoalieGuy,

The stories are all different, but the theme is the same. I don't know where my marriage will end up. Everyday, it's a different story and some days are good and some are bad. My wife has mentioned divorce and separation a number of times over the past 11 months, but hasn't taken action yet. During some of the darkest periods of perimenopause, she says soem remarkably bizarre things that in a way gives me hope because I know that's not my wife speaking, but some hormonally charged person. My wife does has resolve and has reviewed our finances and bills and also seen a lawyer, but that as far as he has gone.

Good Luck to you and your family. I hope all turns out well for you and your wife realizes what she could be giving up.