Hi everyone-I need some advice please!

Some of you know about my dreadful time trying to find some kind of hormonal relief that I can tolerate.

I have tried an estriol cream which made me anxious and weepy, an estradiol patch which made me ill, and then Premarin cream for vaginal dryness which made me really depressed. The Premarin was weird. It first made my libido soar for a week but then it disappeared completely and the depression was dreadful. I stopped it a week ago and I still don't feel right.

I discussed with my MD this week about compounding a low dose of estradiol gel into an oil to use vaginally. She thought it was worth a try so she prescribed me oestrogel.
My objective is two-fold. One I want to treat the atrophy and two I want to switch on the Testosterone that I apply, so it works properly.

I am pleased that in a mini dose I am able to tolerate the estradiol. It is already improving the atrophy. I am not feeling too bad with it and it is not causing such strong side effects as I had with the patch. I have lots of energy and I am not so anxious but I have become a bit irritable.
I am quite disappointed because I thought that estradiol is supposed to switch on womanly feelings.
It is so long since I had any real estradiol in my body (nearly four years since my surgery). I don't know how I am supposed to feel.I was all over the place with my hormones for years before my cancer so I can't remember a time when it was plain sailing!

When I have used estriol it has made me feel very gentle and emotional but the side effects were too much.
With the estradiol I feel the same as I do when I use too much testosterone. Full of energy and quite cheerful but emotionally cold. My libido is still zilch but I am more concerned about feeling so cold and hard.
Can anyone comment on this? How do you who take estradiol feel?

Help!! Any input would be welcome. I have messed around with so many different hormones and I can't risk causing any more marital strife because my hubby can read me like a book. He has had enough of all the ups and downs and today there is tension in the air.

janet c

What you are describing sounds more like the reaction testosterone would cause if too much was used or if it was being used with adequate estrogen on board. Are you using the testosterone now with the vaginal estrogel or just using the estrogel by itself? I am not sure will get adequate systemic estrogen from the small amount you seem to be using vaginally. I know you are more sensitive than most though. Just wondering if you have ever used any progesterone cream and if you have, how did that go? I read that progesterone helps wake the estrogen receptors after they have been dormant for a while.

Post should say "without adequate estrogen on board."

I haven't used testosterone for a week but when I did, I used quite a lot because my libido was gone from using the Premarin.
A week is not that long ago in testosterone terms is it? I think you could be right! I certainly won't use any more for a while!

I am not really aiming for systemic estrogen unless it happens without too much trauma.I am at the end of my rope now with all the different things I have been trying!
Having said that-do you know I haven't had a hot flash all day?I have definitely had a huge reduction in the flushes, mainly I think because my anxiety has reduced.
I have however been running around like a whirling dervish today. I have felt really hyped up . So is that the testosterone or the estrogen?
I am not getting into progesterone territory at present. From what I have heard it can make you feel quite depressed and I have only just got over a major depression caused by the Premarin.
Thanks for your input though. I will consider it in the future although my doctors are adamant I don't need it as I have no uterus.

janet c

My doctor was also adamant about progesterone not being necessary due to my hysterectomy but I was having a hard time tolerating estrogen alone. Just using .05 mcg. patch was too much for me- I had leg cramps, brainfog, and achy joints. I had to switches patch manufacturers & add progesteone cream. I used just a small amount initially because I didnt know how I would react to it. It has taken some getting used to the P & I cycle it monthly so that it doesn't build. I can now use .1 mcg. patch & that would never have happened without the P to balance the E. I think the fact that I used no hrt for years after my hysterectomy caused me to have problems tolerating estrogen & progesterone. I wonder if it has something to do with the receptors being without hormones for so long.

I know my doctors won't give it to me. I am in UK and they won't prescribe it in my situation as that is their policy.
I wonder if I could try the natural OTC one like Serenity?

Actually last year I bought some Progensa Plus from US. It cost me a fortune but I felt so ill on it that I only used it a couple of times. If I remember it made me feel terribly anxious and dizzy. It was really expensive too. It is natural Progesterone cream but it has added phytoestrogens. I suppose that wouldn't be a good idea would it?

janet c

I tried Estridiol ok the first few weeks then head felt strange, increase anxiety and panic Hope you do ok.

I know-I already tried a low dose patch and the same thing happened to me then. It's horrid isn't it? I only lasted a week

This is a tiny dose diluted in a carrier oil so it is very weak. I have been told by my doctor that I am one of a small percentage of people who is super sensitive to hormones so I don't need as much as other people would. It isn't one size fits all in the hormone world is it? I think at last I am getting there anyway!

Thanks for your good wishes. I hope you are doing ok? I know you have been having a rough time too!

janet c

Did you try using the recommended dosage on the Progensa? I used only half the recommended dose & only once daily when I first started it. I had some moodiness and irritability even on that small amount. It doesn't sound like you are going to tolerate P well either. For me, I had to get past 3-4 rough days and then I was okay. I never use the recommended amount & only use it once a day (night).

I only used a very small dose but I had to stop after 3 days as I felt so dizzy and weird.
If I keep my estrogen at a low level and don't overdo the testosterone maybe I will be ok.
I know my T is probably a bit high at the moment but when I apply the E I can feel myself getting hyped and jittery within a minute or so It seems to be the E causing me to go into overdrive. I am having trouble sleeping too.

My doctor said my body would gradually tolerate it and I would unfortunately crave more. I said "that's good isn't it I want to be able to tolerate it". She seemed to think that it was a problem with estrogen. Is that true? Surely enough is enough? It's not heroin

janet c

I have heard of some women craving their next dose of estrogen but it seemed to apply to women using oral estrogen. I dont believe it is always the case with oral estrogen but have heard it referred to as being hungry for the next estrogen dose. I take all my hormones transdermally and have never experienced that.

I don't think there is much chance of that with me. I had an estrogen fuelled cancer and estrogen dominance for many years prior to that! I don't have a great relationship with E but unfortunately a little is necessary for me to function normally.
Thanks for your help today

janet c

I use Estrogel and this is how I feel.... I can tell when it's wearing off and NEED it when it does.
About 45 minutes after I apply it, I can feel it. It's sort of an "up" feeling, not a high, but clear if that makes any sense. I can feel coming down from it.

Too much and I get agitated and headachy.

Hope this helps....

Yes it does thanks! That is exactly I feel sometimes with my mini dose. I can't just use it once a day.If I use a large amount(for me) all at once I feel exactly the same.
I have my oil in a little bottle and carry it with me. If I feel myself coming down I start to feel like I am going to cry and then dab a little more on.
Is this how it is with estrogel? I thought it was really supposed to be applied once a day but then you would surely get a huge rush and the agitation you have just described. I hate that feeling-its horrid!

janet c

Hey there,

Yes, for me that is how I feel if I use a full dose all at once. I don't even really measure what I use, just eyeball it. There are days when I can use a full pump (.75 mgs) and be fine but I think those are days when I'm really running (hot yoga class or something like that), then I'll need more mid afternoon. But on a regular day, I'll pump about 3/4 of that and be great. Still pump a bit more mid afternoon to top up.
I've learned to watch the clock though. If I get busy late afternoon and can't get to the E, I will leave it. Using it too close to the end of the night will keep me up.

But, to answer your question; I think using it the way you are has much the same effect as a patch does. Small, steady doses which is pretty close to how your own body would dispense it.

Having a GIANT hot flash right now, better get my E!!!

Thanks for your input! Have a good day

janet c

Oh dear
I have just had a melt down. Had a huge upset with my hubby and I have been in floods of tears. He told me to for goodness sake stop the estrogen-it's poison to me.
I have been using a tiny, tiny amount as I have already described but I have been getting more uptight and low with each passing day.
What is wrong with me! Why can't I use the darn stuff?
Just needed to vent! I don't expect anyone to have an answer.I don't get it myself

janet c

Janet I'm sorry you are having a rough time. Have you attempted to add a dab of P in to try to get a balance? I know you don't do well with it but maybe now that your E is higher it might benefit you?

Glad there is someone there! Its past midnight here!
This is what I am using.
One tiny bead of one dose of .75mg estrogel diluted into a 50 ml bottle of almond oil. I have been applying 2 small dabs vaginally per day.
I wouldn't think that amount would even register if I had a blood test it is sooo tiny.
I only have P with phytoestrogens-Progensa plus. It made me terribly ill last time I tried it.
Maybe I should cut this down to once a day? I can't play around any more with it. My hubby has had enough!
Thanks for being there sweetie-I feel terribly alone with all of this

janet c

I think dropping it down is a brilliant idea! If you need to talk let me know I can call the UK without charge. I don't know what else to tell you. I know you need it for some things but you don't need the side effects. There has to be away to get the right balance so you can be somewhat normal in all aspects! *Hugs* J you have had it rough sister!

I'm so sorry that you're having such a rough time of it with all of this. I understand how frustrating it can be. I'm still working on it myself.....:-)
I am wondering though, whether using it vaginally might be causing this reaction. It might not be the best spot on your body to use it. Can you try rubbing onto the skin inside your arm? Or, even better, the fatty areas on your inner thigh? That area should slow down the absorption and allow the effects to be more subtle?
I'm just stabbing in the dark here.
Hope you're feeling better soon and are able to resolve this issue quickly.

Cathy

The idea of it vaginally is to treat the atrophy and wake up the testosterone so it works properly. I am not really looking for systemic relief. Thanks for your suggestion though.

janet c

Janet,

From what I understand, E still goes systemic or into the bloodstream using it vaginally. It's the same as using it transdermally. It still crosses the skin and is absorbed into the blood.

I had read this somewhere and it does stand to reason, no?

Correct me if I'm wrong.


c

Oh yes quite right-couldn't agree more. But everyone will tell you it is not supposed to-only minimally. Its not true!
As I am only trying to fix the dryness etc in that area and am only using a tiny amount in oil for that purpose then it makes sense to apply it there though doesn't it? Its just the same as the vaginal creams-(which I have tried and also go systemic.)
Anyway I had a terrible night, didn t sleep until 4.30am, kept crying and woke up with dreadful depression. I have also not had one hot flush for 2 days which is the only good thing about it. You saw in my previous post what a tiny little dab of diluted E I have been using and this is how it affects me! I obviously need to go even lower.
Going to have to stop using it as I can't carry on like this. I feel appalling

An update

Another week has gone by and things are no better. I haven't increased the dose-if anything I am using less than when I started. I seem to feel quite tearful a lot of the time.If I'm not feeling tearful then I am feeling like my brain is fizzing. My hot flushes are horrendous and I feel on the edge, anxious and snappy all the time.

ERT is wonderful isn't it ?

Can anyone tell me if it will get any better and how much longer I am gonna have to feel like this?

I am nowhere near any kind of meaningful dose. Its mini-mini.

HELP PLEASE

janet c

janet
I am sorry you struggling, and I know you want just to treat vaginal issues, but have you thought that giving your body mini amount of estrogen will cause this effect, perhaps, higher dose will have opposite effect on you?
When it comes to ERT, too little or too much, especially not balanced with P and T can do a number on your central nervous system. Have you thought of using T and P along with your vaginal E, as it was noted in previous posts, vaginal Estrogen goes systemic as well, this is actually natural ovarian hormone route, so my guess would be, you need to experiement with the dose.
It is trial and error, talk to your doctor, perhaps, you need dose adjustment or addition of testosterone, which also helps with vaginal dryness and weepiness.
HTH,
Good luck,
I.

I have been using a little T for a long time and I tolerate it very well. It improves my mood and helps with libido.
I was prescibed a low dose estradiol patch after my cancer "all clear" but it was much too strong and made me very ill.
I have read that if we are deprived of E for a long time that our receptors go to sleep and they have to be woken up gradually.
I don't think at present I need to be worrying about progesterone. the amount of estradiol is thus- 1 small bead of .75 mg estrogel diluted into 50mg almond oil. I am using from this one dab a day!
So yes I have thought about using P but at present I am hardly using enough E to warrant it am I ?
The T is helping me stay sane because it stops the anxiety overwhelming me !
I have already tried a larger dose of E with catastrophic effects as I already said in my original post.
You are right about trial and error. I am trying this route to at least get some vaginal relief because all the conventional things like estriol and Premarin just make me terribly ill and depressed. I know this oil I have concocted will go into my system but I was hoping because it was so low a dose I might be able to tolerate it.
I did talk to my doctor who agreed I should give this a try. She says she has never seen anyone who is a sensitive as I to estrogen.
Thanks for your kind wishes anyway. I will not be giving up so I will try another week on the same regime and see what happens

janet c

JANEWT C

sorry-cant even type now. I hate that we can't edit on this site

I am trying to figure out why I seem to not be able to take my Climera patch now. I did fine for a year. Two and a half months ago, I got very ill with unbalance, light headedness, dizziness. It is better now. I cut down the patch and then just took it off. Very odd. I am wondering why I don't hear much about side effects and especially side effects that happen after a year. I am really frustrated.

Are you still cycling? If so, you can get some pretty high E surges during peri. Maybe a surge is what caused the symptoms and having the extra E from the patch just exacerbated it. Just a guess. Did you get any withdrawal symptoms like hot flashes when you went off the patch?

I tried a small amount of Progensa last night. At first I felt ok but as the night wore on I was having terrible palpitations hot sweats and increased anxiety.
I also did have a dab of testosterone yesterday morning but usually I am ok with that as my body is used to it.
Could the Progensa have caused me to feel that way? It was quite horrid and I haven't felt like that before.
I thought it would calm me down a bit because I am feeling a bit wired with the estradiol but it seemed to do the opposite.
I don't know too much about the workings of progesterone so I would appreciate any help.

janet c

Gazelle, no, I had a total Hysterectomy last year. The doc. put the patch on right after the surgery and all was great until 2 1/2 months ago. Now I use NOTHING.

I NEVER EVER would thought I could use no patch. I just never hear stories like mine.

Dear Janet:

I would say you need to gradually go up on both the Estradiol and the Testosterone in the vaginal "oil" or whatever you are applying intravaginally. Move up the dose in baby steps and only move it up once every 10 days or so. The Estriol with Testosterone in a vaginal cream that we usually recommend seems to help most women with atrophy, and help with libido too. If you can't tolerate the Estriol, then a low dose of Estradiol can also be used in its place. So if you need to leave the estriol out that would be OK. However, the Estriol does afford a person some breast cancer protection, and I assume you had some type of female cancer and also had surgery to remove it?
Another thing you could try with time, and probably soon, so as to avoid this marital strife would be to get a Biest with Testosterone in a sublingual tablet from us to try to build up your internal Estrogen levels and also the testosterone levels, so many other things would seem better in life for you also. I don't know if you have a uterus or not, but it might be an idea to also add in a low dose of progesterone so as to get a better balance? We can help you with suggestions for all of this, if you would like to do a consultation with one of our consulting pharmacists. I do believe we can help you, and we will work with you in low doses and gradually increase them as they are tolerated. Here is the link to our patient empowerment program, if you want to continue on with our help. https://www.bellevuerx.com/patientempowerment.aspx . these side effects you are having and with these low doses are not really normal and could be from the low doses waking up receptor sites and then the body screaming for more hormones which is not there. Working your way up in the dose can solve this phenomenon usually.
Good Luck, and Thank you,
Pete Hueseman, R.Ph., P.D.

Thanks Pete

I know you deal with lots of ladies from this site so you probably won't remember our long e-mail conversations but you did try to advise me with vaginal estriol and testosterone a while back and you may remember I was a hopeless case
At the time I had not been given the all clear from endo cancer so I was not allowed anything systemic and in the end I decided to stick with just Testosterone as the estriol made me terribly ill.
I am pleased to say I was given the all clear in March and the doctor put me on a low dose estradiol patch which I just couldn't tolerate.
As you can see by my OP I have tried everything and the oil with a dilute of oestrogel is my own idea and my last hope.
As I live in Uk I will not be able to take advantage of your compounding pharmacy but you have already helped me no end with all your advice.
Interestingly-you are dead right. It is now 10 days since I started the oil and today I have tolerated it so well that I have doubled it with no problem. Two drops instead of one
I have very long way to go but I would love to be able to use enough to stop the flushes. The surgeon has signed me off and told me he has no problem with me using it for the rest of my life so hopefully I have plenty of time to get there!

Many thanks for all your great advice-and thank you for taking the time to reply to my post

janet c

Hmm that's interesting. Does your Dr have any theory on this?

Trudy's mom..

Same thing happend to me...I was taking my bio-estrogen/testosterone cream for 8 months with no issues, then one day..BOOM..same symptoms as you? I thought I was drugged or something. I thought maybe my estrogen not working and tried several low dose patches, all which made me 100% worse, and still, 2 years later feel sicker than ever.
I had my hormones checked via blood serum ...estrogen was only 61...Then, found a top lady hormone doc who did saliva testing and said I was way tooooooo high, and to cut down the estrogen? Im still using some bio-estrogen cream, but still feel very ill. Without it, im so dry I cant breathe or swallow?
Maybe our bodies just dont like the estro? or, maybe we have too much in our tissues?

So, your not on any estrogen now and feeling better?

Hi Janet, if you are using one small bead that perhaps you are not using .75 mg. of the estrogel. One push of the pump is .75 mg. So--maybe you are using about .37 mg.-which from my understanding is not very much. But some people can really feel a difference with just a small amount. It takes so much fine tuning. MOst irritating.

You misunderstand. I am using one small bead diluted into a bottle of 100ml oil. From that I am using one dab a day and it still makes me ill!
One small bead would send me into outer space and probably one push of the pump would kill me-I am not joking!

janet c

Oh Janet I feel for you! I am like that, I have been sensitive for at least my all my adult life. I watch a friend take all sorts of stuff and say she feels nothing. Who is better off?
The biest cream I use is 80-20 total 2 mg per gram I use 1/4 of the does. It dis the job (vag atrophy) was suppose to use in vaginally, but Nooo I started to habe aches where ovaries would be
but I only have 1 ovary. found that the cream was accumulating inside ugh cleaned it out and aches disappeared. so I use it on public area and still works for Vag. but it makes me sluggish
I have tried using a toothpick dot and all sorts of tiny doses its ridiculous.
I am thinking whatever is in the cream might be the culprit.
I would love to try Uzzi Reiss' cream it is .25 estrone, .75 estradiol, and 1.75 estriol also its his cream from whatever pharmacy he uses. but it will cost a fortune for the visit.
Anyone out there using Uzzi's formula?

wow, you are sensitive. Sounds like you know how much works for you though.

I still feel terrible though even with the tiny dose.... Completely oversensitive to everything-can't cope with life at all. When my cat was ill recently my stomach was in knots and I couldn't stop sobbing.It's ridiculous. (She is ok now-she wasn't on death's door)

I am able to tolerate Premarin cream better. I thought I had found the key at first when I tried it. Unfortunately although it doesn't make me so anxious it has the opposite effect and makes me totally and utterly depressed. So either way I'm stuffed!

bklyngal
I have done the toothpick dot thing with estriol. I tried diluting it in lubricant and only using the minutest dose and it still makes me feel really ill. Like you I have a friend who slaps on anything and everything and she doesn't even know she has it in her. Its very frustrating isn't it?

janet c

Janet, where are you putting the E....how far up? I have read to put it 2 inches up for vaginal.

have you tried using the almond oil without E to make sure it is not the oil. Only because I have had problems with a massage and essential oils ...I felt like I had the flu. but when I had a massage with lotion I was fine. I was told I didn't drink enough water but they were wrong.
I also noticed when using biest I felt like my eyes were wet. then I started to wonder if I was REALLY sad or my eyes felt like I feel when sad. lol.
Uzzi Reis doesn't like some creams comounded wit peanut oil. My comounding pharmacy told me if I find some cream that I like they would make it with E.
It does not make sense if a tiny amount is inserted about 2 inches up would go systemically. So I keep trying to find the right spot with the right amount Crazy

No its not the oil-I wish it were that simple! I don't even insert it-I apply to the outside of vagina only. I am using Replens internally which is non-hormonal.
I have tried in the past mixing estriol with a vaginal lubricant and that made me ill also. Of course it makes sense that it would be absorbed systemically. Why do people say that it wouldn't? My doctor told me that all vaginal estrogens are systemic because the vaginal skin is like the inside of the mouth. It's a mucous membrane.It is a myth that they are not absorbed-have a look at this link-

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18820592

I have a similar link for estriol saying much the same thing. This is why we are having trouble tolerating it!
There is no part of the body we can put it and it not be absorbed- and estrogel is absorbed through the skin!
Sorry-that's the truth.

janet c

Wow! I was thinking in terms of E receptors being plentiful in vagina that not much would go through the system since we are using such a tiny amount. and also the higher up in vagina the better.
interesting about premarin and the 500% increase in estrone. it converts anyway even if its horse E
Maybe synthetics would not convert to estrone.
Oringinally, my gyn script says to use Monday to Friday vaginally. 2 days off.
The other thing that is confusing is that it has been said the E only last 12 hrs. Maybe that is for Estriol only.
I am tired of this. The books and Suzanne Sommers make it sound so easy.
thinking for atrophy better to use a few times aweek. but other health issues like osteo I am screwed.

I am going to try something. I have read that the cause of anxiety in some women when using estrogen is heightened norepinephrine- a neurotransmitter in the brain. It is similar to serotonin and it is a good thing at a normal level. However in some women estrogen pushes it up way too high and this causes anxiety.
There is a natural supplement called GABA which targets norepinephrine specifically and pulls it down. Progesterone also promotes GABA but it causes me side effects so I am keeping away!
I have ordered some GABA supplements from Amazon. They are not expensive and they are supposed to work really well. They can calm and help with sleep.
What I am planning to do is use GABA at the same time I use the vaginal estrogen. I will use it just twice a week I think.
I will let you know how I get on.
Why don't you google it? there is lots about it and it seems to be really effective.
I have not used any vaginal E since Friday and I am only beginning to feel better this evening-Sunday so for me it takes longer than 12 hours to wear off

janet c

Sorry I mean Monday

Hi Janet,
sounds like you are onto something. I'm skeptical regarding norepinephrine tests. testing neurotransmitters seems unlikely. and they change constantly.
I guess if I wanted to test myself I would check my blood pressure since it would surely be high from too much norepinephrine.
I also feel the effects for days but like a slug. I went to dr today am going to recheck my hormones to see if they changed any. I told dr the cream fixed the Vag atrophy but my libido disappeared.
please take care of yourself. I feel so screwed up since I didn't do hormones ...today I found out results of an mri of lower back and it was not good. I don't want surgery or walking weird.
I will be watching for your posts to see how the Gaba works. maybe that is the trick...the friend I know that feels nothing and slaps E and P also uses Klonipin and seroquel to knock herself out to sleep.

Yes now the anxiety has worn off I am also feeling depressed and libido is gone.
I have read an article on Hystersisters which actually points to heightened norepinephrine being the culprit for anxiety whilst using estrogen. I only know that when using estrogen every thought and feeling I have is anxious-my whole body is on red alert all the time. Funnily enough now the effects have worn off I keep looking for those feelings and almost automatically trying to bring them on but they are not there! This proves to me it must be heightened norepinephrine.

I have started St John's Wort for the depression and it works really fast for me. I am going to get my head right before I start trying anything else.I just want to feel normal again!
The GABA supplements arrived today but I am not going to try them until I try the estrogen again.

You said something about feeling tearful when using Biest?
I meant to say that I feel as though I have tears at the back of my eyes the whole time I use estradiol. Even now, today I have still got that feeling although not so strongly.
Estriol which is in Bi-est can make you very tearful which is why I can't use it.
Anyway I will let you know when I start experimenting again. Sometimes I feel like just giving it all up and accepting defeat. sigh.....

janet c

Hi JanetC

I am still trying to figure out the high norepinephrine levels too. Mine was very high at last test, but I still think it was because I happened to very anxious at that moment because of a back spasms and all the blood they had to take. My blood pressure is usually always on the low range or normal too. But, my newest expert on this says that high NE is because of the peri stage and the imbalance of estrogen to progesterone. For you, since you are very sensitive to the estrogen, I would say to stop taking it. You can use theanine with or w/o GABA for a few days with nothing else and see how you feel.

Also have you had your ferritin, and Vitamin D, magnesium and B12 checked? Low ferritin can also be a culprit in this as well as Vitamin D.

Thyroid level too. If you have low Free T3 levels you can have awful anxiety and depression too. Lack of hormone to the brain may cause all types of problems in different people. Link that in with the peri hormonal fluctuations and you have strange symptoms day to day.

I'm still putting on my one pump of estrogel a day even though I think I need more progesterone. I have to test saliva and wait and see what this new doctor says about my estrogen to progesterone ratio. For now, I keep using it along with my low doses of T3 and Armour. When I feel a bit anxious I take one of the Theanine with Gaba and it helps a little.