First my story. I have had the occasional back going out in my adult life and always bounced back. Then it seemed that around 2003 I was having more muscle spasms and at that time I had also quit my job to stay home with my 3 year old. I think I was more stressed with childcare than my professional life; however I still bounced back and would be pain free and fine for long period of time. Then in 2005 I lost an ovary and soon after that I noticed my back issues were getting a bit more frequent. I was told to lose weight which I didn't do for awhile. I still would be okay and able to exercise 5 days a week (didn't diet though ) but I was exercising a lot. But slowly I noticed over time my back issues kept getting a bit worse. I had an MRI in 2006 and was told 2 mild disc bulges. I kept exercising when I could but then by 2007 I was having trouble just standing for more than 10 minutes. I'd get intense low back pain and would have to sit and rest. This gradually got worse and worse. I could get around and function, but I'd have some kind of pain almost every day.

Around 2007 I started to think it was the perimenopause that I fell into after the removal of the ovary. I took only natural herbs/vitamins to try and get my energy back, mood better, and depression over these pains gone, but after about a year of that not helping much I started the bio HRT in 2008. I figured these pains that come on have to be either the discs or hormones. I saw this website here and everyone complaining about pain and so I thought all my pain was from low hormones. So now I've been on the hormones almost a year and I'm still sitting here in pain. I have tried 3 different physical therapy sessions of stretching and strengthening only to feel worse; I've done 8 acupuncture sessions and that didn't help either. Now I'm using a chiropractor and I notice some change where I have the bulging disc, but my other pains remain.

Around the time I started the bios I was researching low thyroid. I started to realize that many of my symptoms were low thyroid and muscle pain and triggers that accumulate on muscles are a symptom of low thyroid hormone as well as low sex hormones, emotional stress and physical strains to name a few. I asked for a sonogram of my thyroid and it was found I have complex cysts and nodules and some mild enlargement. Hmmm? I thought I want the Armour. I found a doctor to give me some but he is keeping me too low and I'm now hoping my normal doctor will work with me. But I digress. I started the Thyroid and I have noticed much of my morning aches/stiffness are gone, and my nails have improved, but I still have the pain.

My theory:

I believe all of us women on here complaining of pain (even fibro pain) have it because of muscle triggers that can grow anywhere. I think that also many of us have thyroid issues as well and low thyroid causes muscle triggers. Also the imbalance of sex hormones can cause the triggers too. Now I'm on the hunt for someone who can work on the triggers as my chiro doesn't do a good job with them. I read Massage Envy can do this type of thing, but I don't know how experienced they are. I'm also going to try and work on them myself as I have found areas in my buttocks/hips that are very sore when I push with my thumb. It seems to me that as time went on I got more and more pain and I think it was because I never knew I had these triggers and when you don't treat them as they come the triggers can cause more to develop.

I think the only way to truly get rid of them is to get an experienced therapist to needle them, or massage them away at the same time as getting the thyroid and sex hormones in balance.

As for the all over fibro pain I truly believe it's low thyroid/adrenal issues and vitamin D deficiency as well as iron and other minerals and may also have some triggers involved too.

Is there anyone here that realized this before me that got relief from those nasty buggers in the muscles? I'm so sure that I have muscle triggers that I'm thinking of even going back to my acupuncturist and showing the spots that are sore and tell them to needle me all over that area.

Fibro pain is different from the one you get from bulging disk pain, fibro is burning sensation pain, also it can be shooting pain too, on ocation.
I am 100% positive, it is caused by low estrogen, as this flu-type pain and soreness all over, is a part of PMS package, I used to have before, so indeed it is from low levels of estrogen.
I also think, on a top of hormones, we all have body wear and tear, although, we are still think we are young in our mind, our body knows better than this.
I went through the wost fibro pain 4-5 years back, when my whole body was in agonizing burning like pain, and any point I pressed, felt like a trigger, now it is very subtle, mostly when I am due to may period.
It was initial drop in hormones, that caused this pain, but I guess my body adjusting now, as I am over some symptoms, but getting different one now.
You can go to accupuncturist, and they know the trigger points pretty good. I thouhg, I have noticed that deep massage and manual interaction, made it worse for me,
I avoid massages, chiropractors, accupuncturists, i swim and use steam room few times a week, and stretch while in steam room, this helps more than anything esle.
I also figured that stress and anxiety are major trigger, so I try to control it.
It is hard to tell what causes the pain, fibromyalgia like IBS, is Rx of exclusion, a mysterious illness, mostly caused by depression and anxiety, and low level of hormones during menopause.
HTH, good luck,
I.

I'm going to be looking for someone to do trigger work otherwise Iwill try the acupuncture again. I may even get the injections of lidocaine or cortisone too b/c I can't take much more of this.

I do believe that it all came on b/c of low thyroid an unbalanced sex hormones and of course tension and anxiety that comes with the hormone imbalance too. And I still believe that the symptoms of fibro can also be from low thyroid and adrenals.

There is a steam room or sauna not sure which in my health club. I've been thinking of trying that. It's wooden with a dial on the outside that controls it. Is that sauna or steam?

Corkey,

Hon, I know you are having such a hard time. By chance, have you ever been tested for Lyme disease? Lyme mimics 100's of other diseases.

Just curious...
Shebee

Yup. Been tested for all those rheumy diseases too. The doctors say no arthritis, no lyme, or any other inflammation present. I've been to almost every doctor so far. So me thinks it's all the triggers and I just have to find an expert in getting rid of them. My life has been so impaired these last few years. I'm always anxious with this daily pain; it makes it very hard to do fun things and get out. I get around and can function, but then all of a sudden, bam the pain is too much and I to go bed.

I'm convinced it has to be those knots I feel, and I think it's all because of the hormonal changes especially the low thyroid. I really think that my screwed up endocrine system caused me to be irritated, depressed, moody and tense and then the lack of blood flow from proper hormone function made those little buggers develop and I can feel a lot of areas all around my hips/buttocks that hurt with just a little bit of thumb pressure. I don't have all over wide spread pain so it can't be fibro, it has to be muscle knots.

It has to be hormonal b/c I never had these problems in 20, 30's and the first part of the 40's. It's the last 4 years or so and that is when my hormones started to decline and go crazy.

THe problem is those knots are there so even though I'm taking 1mg of estradiol and 1mg of estriol the triggers won't go away with just adding in some hormones; I have to find a way to break them up.

I may just go right for the needles as much as the pain from that I hear is just awful.

Corky,
Have you read any of Dr. Lowe's writings? He is convinced that most FM is due to low thyroid.

http://www.fibromyalgiaresearch.org/solved/

But I also believe that low E can cause similar symptoms, as Iradan said. That time a couple months ago when I just cold turkey stopped the E, I had a sudden onset on horrific aches all over my body, very severe. I was terrified something was terribly wrong and went to the doc, and of course he could find nothing wrong. Only later did I realize that anytime my E gets low, I start aching again.

ive had herniated disc for 8 yrs now it would flare up like once a year where i was totally on my back for a week or 2 such pain worse then child birth- then this last flare up it was in my mid back- before that it was always in the lower i have not found no releife from the pain i cant stand or sit too long even the percocets dont help, just made me addicted to the crap !!! tryed chiropractor but didnt help hope you have better luck !! i dont know if its hormonal but i never had trouble with my back til i hit 40 along with periods that were not regular- and heavy !! so idk.

I can surely relate with you! I've been struggling with fibro type pain for over 2 years now. I am 51, and now in menopause but I believe my stiffness, tiredness, aches and pains are caused from lack of hormones.

After 2 long years of struggling with tests, finding the right doctors, I finally found a doctor that will prescribe the bioidentical hormonal cream. At first, my previous GYN gave me patches (all 3 - the last being Vivelle Dot) but still wasn't helping. I couldn't convince my GYN to increase my dosage.

But, finally the GYN I am working with now is willing to do compounding creams and increasing my dosage little by little.

I am also not convinced I also don't have a thyroid issue as well - my tests are normal and I can't convince any doctor that I need to have a thyroid scan.

The hormones were helping me sleep, and helping me feel like myself for a few days but then we increased the dosage since it wasn't quite right. Now, I'm not sleeping again and have itchy skin, but my stiffness is less today.

I understand from reading Susanne Sommers book it could take months before getting the BHRT therapy right.

Ladies - don't give up hope if you are having pain. I have read so many books to educate myself about this type of pain. If you need recommendations of books to read, let me know.

I also have a vitamin D deficiency but taking supplements didn't help my pain. It gradually returned and got worse. I think fibro pain when you start having it in menopause can be from lack of magnesium, vitamin D, and hormones, and/or thyroid.

The trick is to find a doctor that will work with you which is the hardest part.

Don't give up!



I have a terrible time with trigger points - I go to aquatherapy twice a week and bought the trigger point book to work them out myself. Boy, can they be painful!!!! I haven't found a good therapist to work them out either!

I have been told by my GYN that he thinks my trigger points will get less and less when we get the hormones regulated. Hang in there!




It is good to know that someone else recognizes that fibro type pain can be from low estrogen!!!
Acupuncture made my pain worse initially - I only went once. I go to aquatherapy and my therapist stretches me out really good before getting in the pool. It seems to help. I think that bioidentical hormones, either aqauatherapy or yoga exercise (that is the hard part with fibro) is the best.

You don't know how long I have struggled to get someone other than my husband to understand that my pain was probably menopause related.

dzimmerman,

Were your thyroid levels low on your tests? It's so strange that most endos don't want to treat low thyroid symptoms. My doctor said my complex cysts were so small and I only needed to take a picture once a year to make sure they weren't growing. My antibodies were negative so he said nothing was going on. To me, if a gland is making cysts, then something isn't working right. My body also made complex cysts on my ovaries and eventually one of them had to be taken out. Then the other ovary started growing complex cysts but they went away. I check that ovary once a year and just had my annual sonogram a week ago. I think if I'm growing complex cysts on my thyroid and ovaries and those two glands are connected, then I have probably had a thyroid problem for a long time. In fact, 18 years ago when I was tired, gaining weight, and had dry skin, my doctor then took a thyroid scan and said I had a mild goiter that had gone away. I was young and thought nothing of that. But now I think, how can you tell if you had a goiter and it went away????

I probably always had some thyroid issue all along. Just slowly developing. And I believe most people have some thyroid issues that develop slowly, and others that get hit really hard with it.

And I am starting to strongly believe that having some type of thyroid issue for a long period of time that is undiagnosed causes fibro. And I think that when perimenopause hits and those hormones start acting up that is when the fibro rears its ugly head. I think the low thyroid/low sex hormones are all connected at this time. I'm glad I started the bios b/c I don't have the all over body pain, but I do feel pain when I press around my arms and legs even though the Rheumotologist pressed around and I didn't feel any pain. But she hardly pressed at all. I told her too. And she said if you have fibro, then the pressure she used would show pain immediately.

I would suggest anyone with fibro pain try really hard to find a doctor to test their thyroid and also go by symptoms. I even think that just having the fibro pain and no other symptoms should warrant a trial of thyroid hormone for a few months to see if relief comes.

On my other board, the fibro people said they got a lot of relief once optimized on Armour.

I would be really interested in those that find pain relief from xanex .. I have my own theries about all this ,, anyone experiencing muscle pain using xanex (or an anti depressant) successfully please let me know ! thanks

Yes! and Yes!!! I defenitly believe all those pain and aches are produce by Thyroids affecting my hormones or viceversa. The mornings are horrid!!!!!!!!!!! fell so achy that I can bark . In my personal opinion thyroid affect my hormones and consecuently my others problems. My hair doesn't grow fast, it takes for ever to grow, my nails are dull, dry looking with some lines at the corners, my weight bad!!!!!!!!!!!! I started to gain weight, so much I'm 60 pounds havier, and not matter what I eat would not loose weight. Pain in my A$$ is sooooooooo bad at the very bottom of my buttocks can feel the pain. Work all day in my feet, some times I get so tire that I have to go to the bathroom and sit at the stool to massage my butt cheecks Can't go for long trips cause the pain in tha butt, plus feeling anxious etc. So yes and yes is Thyroid the bad guy! On my first panick attack almos 10 years ago I had read and read and make my own conclusion and came with Thyroid. I was cold feet in hot weather and my periods getting worse and worse, imsonia, pms 24/7, mental fog, exhausted!!!!!!!!!!!!!, hair falling and getting limp and thin, and of course my weight gain and hypoglycemia are the worse , cause I feel trap in MY OWN FAT!!!!!!!!. Let me to mention that my mind was nowere be to found, and the backpain came with revenge. One day after searching aches and pain I was living in , found and article in the news paper writen by Dr Rosthendal, talking about Thyroid and symtoms taht article, was the eye opening for me. Made an appt with a Dr and test came back ok? And another with my gyno, my thyroids levels came low. But I just don't know what was first? the egg and then the chicken or the chicken and then the egg?


menosick

Yes - and they were in the normal range.

I think I have a combo thyroid/menopause issue also. It is all related. Dr. Tietelbaum says Armour for thyroid is great and that sometimes tests can be normal and you can still have problems.

I went to an endo who did numerous tests - what do I do next? I'm working with a GYN for the BIO's, and my stiffness and pain is getting better. Believe it or not, estrogen helps regulate the thyroid as well so I'm hoping between the estrogen, progesterone, testosterone and vitamin D, things will get better.

Since starting the BIO's, some symptoms are better and some are worse. Now that I'm not quite as stiff and have more energy during the day, I can't sleep again at night. This happened after the doctor increased the dosage. I've heard you have to be patient.

Actually, Estrogen makes the thyroid worse. Progesterone is supposed to make the thyroid issue better. And, now I'm chucking the Progesterone and going to do just the estradiol b/c a few posters here said they felt better on just the estrogen and using the progesterone every few months. I was reading in a book by Dr. Shames who is a big thyroid/armour guy and he says excess estrogen makes the thyroid worse. I was about to just use the Progesterone but I think I'll try just the estrogen alone for awhile. If that doesn't work, I'll then use low doses of Progesterone for ahwile. And if that doesn't work, I'll wean off all the sex hormones and see if just the Armour alone works. My doctor follows Tietelbaum but the bad thing is that Dr. T is not a big fan of hydrocortisone for the adrenals. I believe I need more of the that for my Armour to work and my doctor want's me off of the low dose I've been for 5 months. So I'm about to start self treating and go up higher in the cortisone and a I'm going to up my Armour a little too.

I'm hoping that once I get to a higher dose all this will go away. If not and I get side effects of too much thyroid, I'll go back to the lower dose and just cry with surrender. I'm also on the Vitamin D and Iron and all the other bios, and still have this problem. I think I need to try Xanax at this point, b/c my brain is so wired to always worrying about pain.

As far as endo MDs. I'd say find a holistic doctor or anti-aging MD b/c the endo MDs only abide by their Endocrinology Board guidelines. Here is what mine said to me after I pleaded with him to treat me. I said you have now found some antibodies; I have complex cysts; you felt the enlargement yourself; I have all the symptoms; and my Free T4 was low on the first blood draw. He said, but the TSH was not high enough. I said but I have all the other results. He said if he treated me and I didn't get better and worse had a heart attack then he would be liable b/c the endo Board says there is no scientific proof that a patient needs hormone treatment unless their TSH goes above a certain level. They are afraid of lawsuits. They have to go by their Board and only treat a patient with a TSH level over 5. He did order a few more tests and I will go back and plead one more time, but in the meantime I'm still seeing my holistic MD for my Armour RX even though I think he isn't that great either.

What tests did you get? Did you do a sonogram of the gland? What about antibody tests? What were your results? Do you feel you have most of the low thyroid symptoms as well? The hard thing is that those symptoms are the same as estrogen dominance, and some of them are low estrogen, so it's hard to figure. I've read that estrogen excess causes low thyroid to be worse and now I'm dropping my Prometrium b/c many women here said they did better using the Progesterone a few times a year. So I'm going to try that, but if I notice worsening thyroid issues, I will have to go the other way and maybe drop the estrogel and use just Prometrium.

Teitlbaum often suggests a little cortef for the adrenals. I'm going to see if I can try that. I have similiar issues, but I take a compounded t3 t4. I was doing well with the dosage until I started fooling around with progesterone. Now my levels are off and the fibro/chronic fatigue is back with a vengence.

I didn't think Teitlbaum talked about Cortef. I use that and I'm just now starting to get a bit higher in the dose b/c I think then the Armour may work better for me. I started at 5mg then 10mg for like 2 months then I went up to 15mg. Then my doctor told me to go down to 5mg, but I only went down to 10mg. Then I decided to go back up b/c I wasn't getting much relief of symptoms with the Armour, and I think it's because I need more cortisol to get it moving to the cells so now I'm going up to 20mg and sticking with that for a few weeks.

I have to read more on Teitlbaum.

try L-theanine .. search here you will find a plethora on it.. also you can search the web - keywords Progesterone and GABA



here are posts on the subject from this website going back to 2004 there are many many more you can read for yourselves on this site



Sybilleruth!! Thank you SO much for introducing me, my family....and many PS sisters to the joys of L-Theanine!! It is great stuff and has made my life almost normal!!

thanks for your response....and I agree with you.


I've switched from my initial thought to try the l-theanine "as needed" -- i.e. already in a full blown flaire -- to taking it in the morning (50 or 100 mg) and I am also liking the results. I'm still working to find out the "right dose" for me. Sometimes (if I take too much) the groggy feeling is a bit overwhelming -- but it lasts for only an hour and the rest of the day is much better.

Can't wait until my chewables arrive (like the one Floater is using) because it will be much easier to cut the tablets rather than opening up the capsule and pouring out half of the contents! :-)

Not sure why I never heard about this one before ... I've known about kava, valarian, GABA, Rescue Remedy and a whole host of other supplements ... but no one I've talked to has ever heard of L-Theanine.



I tried the L-Theanine yesterday and today, wow, I feel so calm. I think I love the stuff! I have already handed it out to some of my family members and all have said it made them feel great....all these family members have high stress lives!! Thanks so much for mentioning, although I think it needs to be promoted more on this site.



My anxiety seems to worsen just before my period, like so many of you--or when I spot during my cycle.

I take the amino acid L-theanine for anxiety. It works within 10 minutes and it's wonderful. Takes the edge off without drowsiness (it's a natural supplement). You can google it and buy it on line. Reports say you can take up to 1000 mg a day safely, but do your own research (to allieviate anxiety!)



I took 50 mg. 5-HTP for a year and 1/2 and was very pleased with it! It calmed the anxiety right away and I felt like I didn't have a care in the world! 2 months ago, I discovered L-Theanine, an amino acid found in green tea, and it is even better! I love it! I stay calm, focused, and energetic. I take 100 mg. a.m. and 100 mg. late afternoon and I'm fine all day. So, I stopped the 5-HTP. But, I strongly recommend it!





I'll second teh L-Theanine suggestion. It was recommended by my doctor (a meno specialist) and works wonders. I still have anxiety in the afternoon many days but now I can function!

I'd also recommend GABA. I take a sublingual 250 mg when I feel edgy. GABA is what Ativan keeps around, and L-Theanine is a precursor to GABA.

I've done the l-theanine, and many others. I just took 2 happy campers a little while ago, but it's made me feel a bit dull and depressed. I think I need to updose my cortisone and hold it for awhile and then up my thyroid hormone

I asked him if he thinks I should try it and it answered back in an e mail that he felt I would benefit from it. My dr. is concerned because I am so sensitive to everything. Ya, on his website he answers peoples questions and he often suggests using it. I don't know a lot about it and that's why I'm watching your posts. Thank You