Ok as many of you know I had a horrible time with progesterone cream. I took it thinking I was 'estrogen dominant' after taking some saliva tests that might suggest that even though my estrogen was also low the ratio was a bit off. Anyway, I had read alot about the estrogen dominance theory stating that we won't ovulate as an indicator too that we're estrogen dominant since P won't rise and that leads to E being more throughout your cycle causing the disruption.

Since being off the P cream trying to flush it out of my system I've paid more attention to my moods in the follicular and luteal phases as well as if I'm ovulating. Well I HAVE been ovulating the last couple months without use of the cream since really paying attention to that (I never bothered to really focus on this before the cream). So if I'm ovulating doesn't that mean I'm making enough progesterone on my own and wouldn't even need the cream? I'm thinking now I might be low on estrogen instead of actually being estrogen dominant. If I'm right in my readings I shouldn't be supposedly estrogen dominant if I am ovulating. Does anyone know answers on this issue? Thanks!

Dear Shar,

Since you are ovulating, your body is definitely making P. However, you have been supplementing with P and that could have thrown your system off since progesterone cream stays in your body in the fat cells longer and you said the saliva test indicated lower E levels. Now your P could be much higher than your E which means that you could be out of balance creating higher levels of E, T, and Cortisol. At this point, I would suggest testing in both the follicular and luteal phases to see where your numbers are now. Unfortunately guessing could only make things worse for you.


Best Wishes,

TJ

Shar,
When we are in peri, especially after a couple years, our E is declining and ovulating will cause a surge in P which will exacerbate low E and cause symptoms.

I used to subscribe to the 'estrogen dominant' theory and attended a lecture for health professionals in the mid 90's by Dr. Lee who seemed to really push that whole theory. I believed it and bought his book there along with some P cream. After a couple years of using it on and off it finally dawned on me that using P coincided with feeling lethargic, depressed, and gaining weight.(this was before peri) Now, however, with my low E. the P has the opposite effect--horrid anxiety, spiking bp, no sleep.

Out of my huge collection of hormone books that I've collected over the past several years, I've come to regard the books of Dr. Vliet as the most comprehensive, informative ones on hormones and how they affect all manner of health issues. I highly recommend you read her book "Screaming to Be Heard". I have read and re-read it many times, underlining in red things that stand out or seem pertinent to me, and each time I discover something new that I hadn't noticed before, or I'm in a different stage of peri and different things apply.

Dr. Vliet has had many years of vast clinical experience with thousands of patients and has done extensive research and study, and she will convince you that the E dominant dogma is simply not true. And judging by much of the experiences I've read here on PS, she is very correct. On other hormone groups I've seen horror stories of people who assumed they were E dominant, either because they read the symptom list (which are actually many symptoms of P dominance) or they go by saliva tests , and they slather on the P cream only to find a month or more later that they are feeling worse and worse. And it builds up in the fatty tissues, so it often takes months for it to clear.

Be very careful about using P unless you are absolutely sure you need it as indicated by a blood level of P at day 21 after ovulation.

Thanks Skee and Sariah on the quick responses. Sariah, I have "Screaming to be Heard" and absolutely love the book. I just ordered "It's My Ovaries, Stupid" by Dr. Vliet and devoured it in a day. She is amazing isn't she? I think she makes the most sense too out of all the books I've read and I'm going to test my hormones next month on days 1-3 and 21 as she suggests.

I've been off the P cream about 3 months so am hoping the serum tests will give me some sense of accuracy where I stand now. Even if they show E dominance, which by the way if you remember she says in her 20 plus years of testing serum she has NEVER found this even though saliva tests have shown it, I don't think I can ever be one to tolerate the P cream. My story is horrifying with it and on top of it I had been using more via the 'progesterone experts' touting to double and triple your dose initially if you feel worse so I probably have a ways to go clearing it out of my system. If I somehow have high E then I can try things like calcium d-glucarate and DIM but not even vitex...I found that made me depressed too.

I'm looking forward to the serum tests for some answers hopefully. I just subscribed to the symptom list as you did thinking for sure I was estrogen dominant and after reading Vliet I really wonder if I was deficient moreso in E and just messed my body up worse slapping on the cream.

It's all a learning experience and I was so sick and frustrated but I'm less so now and thinking on the positive atleast through my trial and errors that the errors taught me what definitely does NOT feel good in my system. As much suffering as that was and how I wish the P cream was a miracle for me like others, it will hopefully lead to answers on my path of finding health and happiness again with what WILL work.

I, too, have read all of Vliet's books and they are what prompted me four years ago to start my hormone research and lead me to this site. It's My Ovaries Stupid was my motto for several years ...much to the doctors dislike! I remember her saying that she didn't believe in estrogen dominance and I simply coudn't understand that because I lived estrogen dominance! Any woman who suffers from fibroids, endometriosis, and severe bleeding and clotting is suffering from estrogen dominance. Obviously, not everyone is going to experience this, and by the time a hormone specialist sees someone their hormones are starting to decline so that condition would no longer be relevant...estrogen dominance.

I've had both serum and saliva testing, and guess what they were both right! I understand that Vliet doesn't agree with them, but Reiss does as well as other doctors who are still practicing. Does that make one doctor better than the other, no just different opinions and different approaches, both doing well in their chosen fields of expertise and helping women to feel better.

I agree it is all trial and error, whether you are Dr. Vliet or Dr. Reiss or just someone trying to improve their quality of life and stay sane. Ultimately Shar, I think the P is not the answer for you...at least at this stage in the game anyway...of course that could change by next cycle if you're in perimenopause!


Best Wishes,

TJ

TJ...that's where all the confusion still lies with me actually exactly what you mentioned with obvious symptoms of E dominance. I have fibroids, adenmyosis (sp?), an enlarged uterus and thickening of the uterine lining confirmed by ultrasound not to mention me already knowing with heavy, painful, long, flooding and clotting periods. I thought for sure I was E dominant just on those symptoms alone but when I tried the P cream I felt so horrible I couldn't understand what was going on. I thought is it converting to too much E? Too much cortisol? I realize I was on much higher doses than necessary now as well and think maybe I would just only do well with a pin drop but honestly I'm petrified at the thought of trying it ever again. I will admit the one good thing P did was decrease the intensity of my periods, but that in exchange for feeling suicidal isn't much of an exchange to me.

Maybe I am E dominant and we'll see hopefully with the ratio next month but if I am and still need something for heavy periods I think I'll have to try another route other than the cream. I'm also at the point in thinking the BCP might be a good option just to suppress it all...the ups and downs are unbearable you know. Vliet recommends this in Peri so I'm still contemplating what to do. What I do know is I'm not messing with any more hormones guessing what is going on until I have some sense of my levels next month...the guessing route has just always caused me misery!!!

Shar, you probably were estrogen dominant at one time as was I. Usually, women who were estrogen dominant in their earlier years end up having menopause later than others because of their fairly higher levels of estrogen. However, that has changed for me and now my estrogen levels are not high enough in the follicular phase and my progesterone is too high in the luteal phase...wreaking havoc on my mind and body! Yes the P did help me with my heavy periods and fibroids two years ago. Now, I think that adrenal problems are causing higher levels of P which is an entirely different type of nightmare. BCP's may be able to help you, but you need to ensure that the BCP that is used has higher estrogen as opposed to higher progesterone. Unfortunately, some doctors don't pay attention and prescribe the higher progesterone pills which only makes matters worse!

I know telling you to be patient is ridiculous, but you need to establish a baseline so that you know what you're working with. In the meantime, you have to take care of yourself as best you can. Please seek out people who love and support you to get through these difficult times..

We're all here praying for you...

Best Wishs,

TJ