I have been going through bad depression and anxiety with peri...actually I have ever since reaching puberty but in particular of late. I've done tons of reading and read on one hand estrogen dominance will create the depression/anxiety and how progesterone cream has helped so many others since it is a natural anti-depressant, helps gaba receptors and increases thyroid functioning. Then I read no it's the other way around that declining estrogen will cause this because estrogen helps increase serotonin and why antidepressants help so many women as they'd mimic a function of estrogen.
But then I think well if estrogen inhibits thyroid functioning then isn't it a double edge sword and the same for progesterone since it can increase and/or convert to cortisol making depression and anxiety worse which will also inhibit thyroid with too high a dose? I'm so sick of reading one thing and then feeling like I have an answer only to read another thing arguing against it.
I've also read how progesterone cream has been miraculous for many women while others became suicidal and how estrogen has helped with depression and anxiety for some while making it worse in others. Is there really any answer out there??? I've been down the route of progesterone cream which would help me initially within hours lifting my depression then turning into severe anxiety and panic just to name a couple symptoms. I'm now taking a dab of estrogel even though I thought I was estrogen dominant because I think I might have oversaturated with the P cream. I've only been on the estrogel 3 weeks and off the P cream a month and things aren't much better.
Can anyone give experiences which helped them the most and what they think about these theories on which is supposed to help more etc?
Power Surge Forums > Board Discussions > Depression (Menopause Related) / Anti-depressants / The Blues / Sadness
The conflicting info out there can be very frustrating. Unfortunately, we all react differently to different things.
I have been using ProGest cream for a while now, and I think it's only helping. I'm not noticing any significant changes in my moods (which have been all over the place for the past 8-9 months), but they're not worsening which is good. I only use about 1/4 teaspoon 2x a day--morning and night. I use it for 3 weeks, then take 7 days off. I am sleeping better, although I still find it a bit difficult to get back to sleep if something wakes me up. But at least I'm not tossing and turning most of the night and only getting about 3 hours total.
My physical symptoms have lessened quite a bit, and my spotting/bleeding episodes have finally stopped now that I'm following the anti-estrogen diet and adding Indole supplements to my vitamin regimen.
I have been using ProGest cream for a while now, and I think it's only helping. I'm not noticing any significant changes in my moods (which have been all over the place for the past 8-9 months), but they're not worsening which is good. I only use about 1/4 teaspoon 2x a day--morning and night. I use it for 3 weeks, then take 7 days off. I am sleeping better, although I still find it a bit difficult to get back to sleep if something wakes me up. But at least I'm not tossing and turning most of the night and only getting about 3 hours total.
My physical symptoms have lessened quite a bit, and my spotting/bleeding episodes have finally stopped now that I'm following the anti-estrogen diet and adding Indole supplements to my vitamin regimen.
I too find it confusing and just when I think I have it figured out, I find myself lost again. Really frustrating!
What seems to help right at this moment is to use a dose of estragel in the am and a dose of P at night. I'm post so I don't have to cycle. If I do this every single day I seem to stay balanced. I've also decided I can't take T at all. I won't say I feel great but I feel functional.
If I'm low on E, I will get anxious, almost paranoid and very fearful. I have to do a lot of self talk during that time to get myself through it.
What seems to help right at this moment is to use a dose of estragel in the am and a dose of P at night. I'm post so I don't have to cycle. If I do this every single day I seem to stay balanced. I've also decided I can't take T at all. I won't say I feel great but I feel functional.
If I'm low on E, I will get anxious, almost paranoid and very fearful. I have to do a lot of self talk during that time to get myself through it.
Progesterone turned me into an anxious, panicky, fearful blob of insanity. My doc put me on a compounded cream along with a separate estriol/estradiol cream (heavy on the estriol) and it was a very low dose E compared with the P.
It took me about a month to figure out what was causing me to almost lose my mind. I couldn't sleep, I developed intense health anxiety, feelings of impending doom/death, palpitations, GERD. Even now, thinking back, I can feel the horror of it. There is nothing that could make me go through that again if I have any say over it.
And it took a month or 2 for it to totally leave my system. I now use a small dose of estrogel and I'm back to normal.
You may be one that does OK on P, but be aware that it can sneak up on you. You can feel good initially, but then, due to it's tendency to accumulate in the adipose tissue you may start having problems.
I am one that believes it's best to start on one hormone at a time so that it's possible to see how it's affecting you. If you start on more than one, then you don't know which one is causing which symptom.
It took me about a month to figure out what was causing me to almost lose my mind. I couldn't sleep, I developed intense health anxiety, feelings of impending doom/death, palpitations, GERD. Even now, thinking back, I can feel the horror of it. There is nothing that could make me go through that again if I have any say over it.
And it took a month or 2 for it to totally leave my system. I now use a small dose of estrogel and I'm back to normal.
You may be one that does OK on P, but be aware that it can sneak up on you. You can feel good initially, but then, due to it's tendency to accumulate in the adipose tissue you may start having problems.
I am one that believes it's best to start on one hormone at a time so that it's possible to see how it's affecting you. If you start on more than one, then you don't know which one is causing which symptom.
I think how each individual reacts to these hormones has a lot to do with what there levels are at, and how their individual bodies metabolize them. I take 100mg of prometrium every night, and 1.5 mgs of estrogel every day. I do well on them both. I do believe, however, that in my case, my hormones had bottomed out and I my body was desperate for them! I have been taking hormones for 1 year now and I am very satisfied with the relief they have given me.
QUOTE (Sariah @ Feb 2 2009, 10:35 PM) 
Progesterone turned me into an anxious, panicky, fearful blob of insanity. My doc put me on a compounded cream along with a separate estriol/estradiol cream (heavy on the estriol) and it was a very low dose E compared with the P.
It took me about a month to figure out what was causing me to almost lose my mind. I couldn't sleep, I developed intense health anxiety, feelings of impending doom/death, palpitations, GERD. Even now, thinking back, I can feel the horror of it. There is nothing that could make me go through that again if I have any say over it.
It took me about a month to figure out what was causing me to almost lose my mind. I couldn't sleep, I developed intense health anxiety, feelings of impending doom/death, palpitations, GERD. Even now, thinking back, I can feel the horror of it. There is nothing that could make me go through that again if I have any say over it.
Sariah,
OMG, I got the same issue. I was trying for few months, and went basket case, i tried Bi-est, tri-est, and different delivery systems of natural progesterone, and while on estrogen only weeks I was sort of OK, once added progesterone, I turned into a wimpy, panicky, anxious, suicidal mess.
I also have read that progesterone replacement therapy, if what makes women quit HRT in general, most women do much better on estrogen alone, problem is - if you have your parts, progesterone is needed.
Could be that B-est and Tri-est that where 80% estradiol were too weak for 100 mg of Progesterone twice a day, yes, I know it was bad Rx.
I gave up after 6 months of misery, mid cycle bleeding, etc. I swore than nothing will make me tough hormones again, and went on Xanax instead.
It is good to know someone else had bad reaction to compounded hormones with estriol, I think one think Dr.Vliet is right about, it should be Estradiol only and preferable in transdermal or vaginal delivery.
Best,
I.
I have to say that I think the way doctors prescribe hormones with a just try it and see attitude is so scary to me. I was given progesterone cream by my GYN, which gave me horrible muscle cramps, crazy anxiety and just made me feel horrible. Then, I was given by another doctor estrogen patches (Vivelle), progesterone pills, and then given another Rx for testosterone to start the next month. This made me really nervous, as have a blood clotting disorder and had been told it was unsafe to use birth control pills. I then consulted a third doctor (at the Mayo Clinic in Jacksonville, FL) who told me I should NEVER, NEVER take hormones, unless I wanted an pulmonary embolism. I think many doctors right out prescriptions without really knowing if its the right thing for their patient. The doctor at Mayo was the first to do any hormone blood work, and I was low in cortisol and estradiol. Unfortunately for me, hormones are out of the equation now and I'm trying natural supplements under the care of a naturopathic doc along with diet and exercise. My new naturo doc diangosed me as progesterone dominant, so I'm trying to up my body's production of estrogen. Have you had hormone testing? I've read on here at least that it can be difficult to get good test results, but I still think its better than guessing and using your poor body as a guinea pig. The depression thing is so hard and something people who've never experienced it don't understand. If you have a broken leg, you can still lead a relatively normal life. Depression, even though its not as obvious to other people can totally stop your life dead in its tracks. I wish you the best of luck in whatever you decide to do!!!!
QUOTE (shar14 @ Feb 2 2009, 06:04 PM)
I have been going through bad depression and anxiety with peri...actually I have ever since reaching puberty but in particular of late. I've done tons of reading and read on one hand estrogen dominance will create the depression/anxiety and how progesterone cream has helped so many others since it is a natural anti-depressant, helps gaba receptors and increases thyroid functioning. Then I read no it's the other way around that declining estrogen will cause this because estrogen helps increase serotonin and why antidepressants help so many women as they'd mimic a function of estrogen.
But then I think well if estrogen inhibits thyroid functioning then isn't it a double edge sword and the same for progesterone since it can increase and/or convert to cortisol making depression and anxiety worse which will also inhibit thyroid with too high a dose? I'm so sick of reading one thing and then feeling like I have an answer only to read another thing arguing against it.
I've also read how progesterone cream has been miraculous for many women while others became suicidal and how estrogen has helped with depression and anxiety for some while making it worse in others. Is there really any answer out there??? I've been down the route of progesterone cream which would help me initially within hours lifting my depression then turning into severe anxiety and panic just to name a couple symptoms. I'm now taking a dab of estrogel even though I thought I was estrogen dominant because I think I might have oversaturated with the P cream. I've only been on the estrogel 3 weeks and off the P cream a month and things aren't much better.
Can anyone give experiences which helped them the most and what they think about these theories on which is supposed to help more etc?
But then I think well if estrogen inhibits thyroid functioning then isn't it a double edge sword and the same for progesterone since it can increase and/or convert to cortisol making depression and anxiety worse which will also inhibit thyroid with too high a dose? I'm so sick of reading one thing and then feeling like I have an answer only to read another thing arguing against it.
I've also read how progesterone cream has been miraculous for many women while others became suicidal and how estrogen has helped with depression and anxiety for some while making it worse in others. Is there really any answer out there??? I've been down the route of progesterone cream which would help me initially within hours lifting my depression then turning into severe anxiety and panic just to name a couple symptoms. I'm now taking a dab of estrogel even though I thought I was estrogen dominant because I think I might have oversaturated with the P cream. I've only been on the estrogel 3 weeks and off the P cream a month and things aren't much better.
Can anyone give experiences which helped them the most and what they think about these theories on which is supposed to help more etc?
Shar, I'm sorry to hear you're having such a difficult time. I, too, have struggled with depression since the onset of puberty. For me, I personally believe that it is related to estrogen dominance... I have fibroids and those are due to higher levels of estrogen. Even after being tested, my estrogen levels are higher compared to my progesterone but very low compared to what they should be. That said, in the past I have used progesterone cream to take the edge off of my depression..it was still major but at least I was staying out of the hospital and not be suicidal! I, however, had to back track and start over with a very, very small dose building up to the normal amount that was supposed to be taken because it did initially make my depression worse and my anxiety.
All of the information out there is confusing, and yes thyroid could have something to do with it as wel. I just found out that not only are my female hormones low, but so is my thyroid and adrenals and iron levels... I'm trying to sort this entire mess out as we speak, and finding it difficult to find a doctor that is willing to prescribe the hormones and know what they are doing... That said, I think it is important to get your levels checked so that you at least know what you are dealing with. I'm trying to get my girlfriend to get her levels tested but she's trying to find herbs that will help. She's feeling really awful right now, has been on Lexipro for panic and anxiety for years but it really isn't helping her.
Hope you feel better soon... Keep us posted on your progress...
TJ
There is a significant amount of data that supports the theory that estradiol and progesterone have a significant impact on elevating serotonin levels, as well as a significant impact on other important neurotransmitters such as dopamine and GABA.
One study demonstrated elderly patients with lower estrogen levels may have cognitive impairment and may be less able to perform common daily activities than those with higher levels. In this study, they looked at the relationship between a person's natural estrogen level and the risk of dementia in the elderly. They evaluated 135 men and women in Bangkok between ages 52 and 85. Of the study participants, 72 had dementia and 63 did not. Results show a direct correlation between natural estrogen levels (E2) and cognition and behavior in the elderly. In fact, lower estradiol levels were associated with a higher risk in the occurrence of dementia, worse cognition and more behavioral disturbances. However, researchers believe that while optimal levels of E2 are needed to maintain brain function in later life, estrogen replacement therapy may not be effective once symptoms of Alzheimer's disease are present.1
It also has been shown that serotonin receptor binding in the right prefrontal cortex is significantly increased after estrogen replacement therapy. Of particular interest, these changes occurred in areas linked to working memory. In fact, in animal studies, it has also been shown there are improvements in verbal fluency and trail-making tests after taking estrogen receptor therapy. From this data, researchers have concluded that estrogen increases serotonin receptor binding in human prefrontal regions.2
Many studies have also been done in schizophrenic patients looking at estrogen levels and serotonin levels, as well as other brain neurotransmitters. They have shown that the level of serum estrogen has got a strong correlation with cognitive function, especially global cognition, verbal, spatial deceleration, memory and perceptual motor speech. Further, higher estrogen levels in female schizophrenics are associated with better cognitive ability.3 These studies have shown that estrogen has modulating roles on dopamine and serotonin receptors. Estrogen can also block serotonin receptors, especially 5-HT1A and 5-HT2A. 4,5,6,7
Another study has shown that progesterone also expresses D5 receptors in the atrial natriuretic peptide neurons in the hypothalamus although the effect is less potent than estrogen.8 The authors mention that there might be a possibility that progesterone could enhance the effect of estrogen8 and thus it could lead to an estrogen-progesterone combination therapy in schizophrenia! It is possible to infer that estrogen is a natural neuroprotectant and by blocking dopamine and serotonin neuroreceptors in the brain, probably acts in a manner similar to neuroleptics, which are either purely dopamine blockers (e.g. chlorpromazine, haloperidol and clozapine) or dopamine plus serotonin blockers (e.g. risperidone). Estrogen is thus better called a schizoprotectant, as it not only prevents the development of schizophrenia but also improves the external psychological functioning in the patients. Although a large body of studies has substantiated this view
As for dosage forms, using a dosage form that bypasses the liver on first-pass metabolism (sublingual tablet, gel, or cream) is best such that the hormone is directly absorbed into the bloodstream without undergoing significant metabolism first to other hormones and inflammatory mediators. Generally 10-20% is absorbed in these type of dosage forms. Generally, patients will notice effects starting within 1-2 weeks and in some patients it takes up to 3 to 4 months to have full effect.
1. Archives of Neurology, 2002;59:385-389
2. American Journal of Psychiatry 2003; 160: 1522-4.
3. Hoff Al, Kremen WS, Wieneke MH, Lauriello J, Blankfeld HM, Faustman WO, et al. Association of oestrogen levels with neuropsychological performance in women with schizophrenia. Am J Psychiatry 2001;158:1134-9.
4. Fink G, Summer BE, Rosie R, Grace O, Quinn JP. Estrogen control of central neurotransmission: effect on mood, mental state and memory. Cell Mol Neurobiol 1996;16:325-44.
5. Fink G, Summer BE, McQueen JK, Wilson H, Rosie R. Sex steroid control of mood, mental state and memory. Clin Exp Pharmacol Physiol 1998;25:
764-75.
6. Summer BE, Fink G. Testosterone as well as estrogen increases serotonin 2A receptor mRNA and binding site densities in the male rat brain. Brain Res Mol Brain Res 1998;59:205-14.
7. Fink G, Summer BE, Rosie R, Wilson H, McQueen J. Androgen actions on central serotonin neurotransmission: relevance for mood, mental state and memory. Behav Brain Res 1999;105:53-68.
8.
Osterlund MK, Halldin C, Hurd YL. Effects of chronic 17-beta-estradiol treatment on the serotonin 5-HT (1A) receptor mRNA and binding levels in the rat brain. Synapse 2000;35:39-44.
Paul Hueseman, Pharm.D.
One study demonstrated elderly patients with lower estrogen levels may have cognitive impairment and may be less able to perform common daily activities than those with higher levels. In this study, they looked at the relationship between a person's natural estrogen level and the risk of dementia in the elderly. They evaluated 135 men and women in Bangkok between ages 52 and 85. Of the study participants, 72 had dementia and 63 did not. Results show a direct correlation between natural estrogen levels (E2) and cognition and behavior in the elderly. In fact, lower estradiol levels were associated with a higher risk in the occurrence of dementia, worse cognition and more behavioral disturbances. However, researchers believe that while optimal levels of E2 are needed to maintain brain function in later life, estrogen replacement therapy may not be effective once symptoms of Alzheimer's disease are present.1
It also has been shown that serotonin receptor binding in the right prefrontal cortex is significantly increased after estrogen replacement therapy. Of particular interest, these changes occurred in areas linked to working memory. In fact, in animal studies, it has also been shown there are improvements in verbal fluency and trail-making tests after taking estrogen receptor therapy. From this data, researchers have concluded that estrogen increases serotonin receptor binding in human prefrontal regions.2
Many studies have also been done in schizophrenic patients looking at estrogen levels and serotonin levels, as well as other brain neurotransmitters. They have shown that the level of serum estrogen has got a strong correlation with cognitive function, especially global cognition, verbal, spatial deceleration, memory and perceptual motor speech. Further, higher estrogen levels in female schizophrenics are associated with better cognitive ability.3 These studies have shown that estrogen has modulating roles on dopamine and serotonin receptors. Estrogen can also block serotonin receptors, especially 5-HT1A and 5-HT2A. 4,5,6,7
Another study has shown that progesterone also expresses D5 receptors in the atrial natriuretic peptide neurons in the hypothalamus although the effect is less potent than estrogen.8 The authors mention that there might be a possibility that progesterone could enhance the effect of estrogen8 and thus it could lead to an estrogen-progesterone combination therapy in schizophrenia! It is possible to infer that estrogen is a natural neuroprotectant and by blocking dopamine and serotonin neuroreceptors in the brain, probably acts in a manner similar to neuroleptics, which are either purely dopamine blockers (e.g. chlorpromazine, haloperidol and clozapine) or dopamine plus serotonin blockers (e.g. risperidone). Estrogen is thus better called a schizoprotectant, as it not only prevents the development of schizophrenia but also improves the external psychological functioning in the patients. Although a large body of studies has substantiated this view
As for dosage forms, using a dosage form that bypasses the liver on first-pass metabolism (sublingual tablet, gel, or cream) is best such that the hormone is directly absorbed into the bloodstream without undergoing significant metabolism first to other hormones and inflammatory mediators. Generally 10-20% is absorbed in these type of dosage forms. Generally, patients will notice effects starting within 1-2 weeks and in some patients it takes up to 3 to 4 months to have full effect.
1. Archives of Neurology, 2002;59:385-389
2. American Journal of Psychiatry 2003; 160: 1522-4.
3. Hoff Al, Kremen WS, Wieneke MH, Lauriello J, Blankfeld HM, Faustman WO, et al. Association of oestrogen levels with neuropsychological performance in women with schizophrenia. Am J Psychiatry 2001;158:1134-9.
4. Fink G, Summer BE, Rosie R, Grace O, Quinn JP. Estrogen control of central neurotransmission: effect on mood, mental state and memory. Cell Mol Neurobiol 1996;16:325-44.
5. Fink G, Summer BE, McQueen JK, Wilson H, Rosie R. Sex steroid control of mood, mental state and memory. Clin Exp Pharmacol Physiol 1998;25:
764-75.
6. Summer BE, Fink G. Testosterone as well as estrogen increases serotonin 2A receptor mRNA and binding site densities in the male rat brain. Brain Res Mol Brain Res 1998;59:205-14.
7. Fink G, Summer BE, Rosie R, Wilson H, McQueen J. Androgen actions on central serotonin neurotransmission: relevance for mood, mental state and memory. Behav Brain Res 1999;105:53-68.
8.
Osterlund MK, Halldin C, Hurd YL. Effects of chronic 17-beta-estradiol treatment on the serotonin 5-HT (1A) receptor mRNA and binding levels in the rat brain. Synapse 2000;35:39-44.
Paul Hueseman, Pharm.D.
Thanks everyone for the responses with individual differences and Pete for the studies. I'm still confused but suppose I always will be about this all. I really was hooked on the notion I had estrogen dominance with my symptoms and saliva testing pointed to that too, but now in reading Vliet in particular I wonder if serum is better to tell. I'm also 38 in peri and read more that estrogen is fluctuating higher as progesterone is plumetting at a quicker rate. I would feel ok on the progesterone cream initially them be struck with terror, panic, depression, suicidal thoughts...just sick stuff I don't want to go through again...although it DID help decrease my painful periods...what a bonus after all that torture! 
Since being off the cream for about a month and doing the estrogel about 3 weeks I have been still suffering from suicidal thoughts, have been gaining weight, feeling lethargic and actually having similar feelings when I was on the progesterone cream which makes me wonder if maybe I was experiencing this estrogen dominance wake up and needed to increase my cream dosage and ride it out? On the other hand I wonder if I'm experiencing the progesterone withdraws and have to wait that out until the estrogen kicks in. If that is the case does anyone know or have experience in knowing someone getting off the cream having withdraws and how long it took to feel better? I know you said about a month Sariah but how long were you on it to begin with? I was taking it for 4 months trying to ride it out.
I just don't want to live like this anymore and I can't afford a specialist that charges an average of 3k for the workup and my OB/GYN now insists hormonal tests are useless since I'm in peri and they are fluctuating and I should just go on the BC pill and I've been down the road of inconsiderate, insincere, unknowledgable doctor after doctor after doctor for so many years walking out of offices in tears I just don't have the strength to go through that again. I wish I knew of an endo or ob/gyn that would just run my labs so I could atleast know where I stand.
Since being off the cream for about a month and doing the estrogel about 3 weeks I have been still suffering from suicidal thoughts, have been gaining weight, feeling lethargic and actually having similar feelings when I was on the progesterone cream which makes me wonder if maybe I was experiencing this estrogen dominance wake up and needed to increase my cream dosage and ride it out? On the other hand I wonder if I'm experiencing the progesterone withdraws and have to wait that out until the estrogen kicks in. If that is the case does anyone know or have experience in knowing someone getting off the cream having withdraws and how long it took to feel better? I know you said about a month Sariah but how long were you on it to begin with? I was taking it for 4 months trying to ride it out.
I just don't want to live like this anymore and I can't afford a specialist that charges an average of 3k for the workup and my OB/GYN now insists hormonal tests are useless since I'm in peri and they are fluctuating and I should just go on the BC pill and I've been down the road of inconsiderate, insincere, unknowledgable doctor after doctor after doctor for so many years walking out of offices in tears I just don't have the strength to go through that again. I wish I knew of an endo or ob/gyn that would just run my labs so I could atleast know where I stand.
QUOTE (shar14 @ Feb 3 2009, 07:26 PM)
Thanks everyone for the responses with individual differences and Pete for the studies. I'm still confused but suppose I always will be about this all. I really was hooked on the notion I had estrogen dominance with my symptoms and saliva testing pointed to that too, but now in reading Vliet in particular I wonder if serum is better to tell. I'm also 38 in peri and read more that estrogen is fluctuating higher as progesterone is plumetting at a quicker rate. I would feel ok on the progesterone cream initially them be struck with terror, panic, depression, suicidal thoughts...just sick stuff I don't want to go through again...although it DID help decrease my painful periods...what a bonus after all that torture!
Since being off the cream for about a month and doing the estrogel about 3 weeks I have been still suffering from suicidal thoughts, have been gaining weight, feeling lethargic and actually having similar feelings when I was on the progesterone cream which makes me wonder if maybe I was experiencing this estrogen dominance wake up and needed to increase my cream dosage and ride it out? On the other hand I wonder if I'm experiencing the progesterone withdraws and have to wait that out until the estrogen kicks in. If that is the case does anyone know or have experience in knowing someone getting off the cream having withdraws and how long it took to feel better? I know you said about a month Sariah but how long were you on it to begin with? I was taking it for 4 months trying to ride it out.
I just don't want to live like this anymore and I can't afford a specialist that charges an average of 3k for the workup and my OB/GYN now insists hormonal tests are useless since I'm in peri and they are fluctuating and I should just go on the BC pill and I've been down the road of inconsiderate, insincere, unknowledgable doctor after doctor after doctor for so many years walking out of offices in tears I just don't have the strength to go through that again. I wish I knew of an endo or ob/gyn that would just run my labs so I could atleast know where I stand.
Since being off the cream for about a month and doing the estrogel about 3 weeks I have been still suffering from suicidal thoughts, have been gaining weight, feeling lethargic and actually having similar feelings when I was on the progesterone cream which makes me wonder if maybe I was experiencing this estrogen dominance wake up and needed to increase my cream dosage and ride it out? On the other hand I wonder if I'm experiencing the progesterone withdraws and have to wait that out until the estrogen kicks in. If that is the case does anyone know or have experience in knowing someone getting off the cream having withdraws and how long it took to feel better? I know you said about a month Sariah but how long were you on it to begin with? I was taking it for 4 months trying to ride it out.
I just don't want to live like this anymore and I can't afford a specialist that charges an average of 3k for the workup and my OB/GYN now insists hormonal tests are useless since I'm in peri and they are fluctuating and I should just go on the BC pill and I've been down the road of inconsiderate, insincere, unknowledgable doctor after doctor after doctor for so many years walking out of offices in tears I just don't have the strength to go through that again. I wish I knew of an endo or ob/gyn that would just run my labs so I could atleast know where I stand.
Shar, it's difficult to find doctors that will run the necessary tests. I had to basically DEMAND the tests from my FP, and even that only got me a few of them....had to get the other thyroid tests from an alternative doctor which meant paying out of pocket. By the way you should also have your thyroid tested because it can also cause depression TSH, Free T3, Free T4, and thyroid antibodies...
The blood serum tests are the best for test results. Also, see if you can find an alternative, naturapath, or DO in your area that takes your insurance. They will definitely run the tests for you, all of them, and are better equipped, in most cases, to treat everything...all of your hormones...including thyroid! I'm going through the same thing now, in terms of the doctor dance! I can thoroughly understand your pain and frustration with them, I am on my 5th and hoping that they sign off on the script from Pete tomorrow! If not, on to the next doctor. Forget that crap about hormones changing too much in peri to treat, that is an old way of thinking. Hormones need to be optimized in SOME women and that is what I am shooting for. I gave up four years ago as well, but I have lived a painful existence since then and I deserve more out of life....and SO DO YOU!
Email me and let me know where you are located, perhaps I can give you some names to consider. You can also do a search on bioidentical hormone replacement and your city and state and see what comes up, also do a search on compounding pharmacy and your city and state and see if they can give you some names. Use google because it comes up with more replies...than most!
Wishing you a better, brighter day...
TJ
QUOTE (shar14 @ Feb 3 2009, 06:26 PM)
I just don't want to live like this anymore and I can't afford a specialist that charges an average of 3k for the workup and my OB/GYN now insists hormonal tests are useless since I'm in peri and they are fluctuating and I should just go on the BC pill and I've been down the road of inconsiderate, insincere, unknowledgable doctor after doctor after doctor for so many years walking out of offices in tears I just don't have the strength to go through that again. I wish I knew of an endo or ob/gyn that would just run my labs so I could atleast know where I stand.
Shar,
I order my own serum tests online. They are drawn at LabCorp, which many docs and hospitals use, so they are legit. You do not need an Rx for them.
Thanks everyone for the experiences and Sariah for the info on ordering my own labs. I FINALLY took the plunge and called today to schedule with an OB/GYN at Rush Women's Medical Center (here in Chicago as AA and you Sariah being from Illinois might know is a great hospital with cutting edge docs). I had held back so long on seeing docs because of the in and out insincere attitude and pats on the back that I was fine, all tests 'normal' and just hop on the BCPs with and antidepressant and feel better. Well that didn't work and I was SICK of docs!!! I have to get this straightened out though and if it means my livelihood and years of having to tweak hormones if I choose to take them then I'm on the rampage again to get a doc to LISTEN AND DO SOMETHING! It's about time they do and I think more women are speaking up so that they might be. I also requested a lady doc in hopes she'll understand more.
I'll update you kiddos and let you know but have a question if any might have a clue. As many know I stopped the progesterone cream because I was feeling crazy on it (though many of you ladies helped me realize I could have been on too high a dose and maybe just maybe I could benefit from a low dose...though admittedly I'm scared to try). So my appt being on the 27th this month the P cream should be atleast a little more out of my system for accurate results. Also I've been taking just a little dab of estrogel (1/2 a pump a day to 1 pump a day at most) to try counteracting the withdraws/symptoms of the P excess. Should I try decreasing/stopping this until the appt to get the most accurate results of what my levels might be? I think I read in Uzzi Reiss's book that to get accuracy all hormones must be decreased slowly then stopped for a complete 6 months to get a good accurate blood reading of your true levels. Well the E has seemed to help counteract some symptoms and it still wouldn't be 6 weeks being off but I do want the best results possible of what my own body is doing.
Then again would it REALLY make that much of a difference? I know you all get tested regularly on the hormones to see where your levels are at so does it really matter? Also don't I have to get certain tests like FSH, LH, E and P at different times of the month supposedly? Do you know when? Will my doc know this or do you find they just run them when you go in?
Sorry for all the questions but I want to be armed with info since I'm finally taking the plunge to do this and don't want to go doc to doc again if I don't have to. I'm also writing up a full background history since puberty and handing it over to her to review instead of trying to remember it all in a jumble. I've done that before and found docs to be grateful for that and looking for patterns (even though they still weren't helpful LOL).
I'll update you kiddos and let you know but have a question if any might have a clue. As many know I stopped the progesterone cream because I was feeling crazy on it (though many of you ladies helped me realize I could have been on too high a dose and maybe just maybe I could benefit from a low dose...though admittedly I'm scared to try). So my appt being on the 27th this month the P cream should be atleast a little more out of my system for accurate results. Also I've been taking just a little dab of estrogel (1/2 a pump a day to 1 pump a day at most) to try counteracting the withdraws/symptoms of the P excess. Should I try decreasing/stopping this until the appt to get the most accurate results of what my levels might be? I think I read in Uzzi Reiss's book that to get accuracy all hormones must be decreased slowly then stopped for a complete 6 months to get a good accurate blood reading of your true levels. Well the E has seemed to help counteract some symptoms and it still wouldn't be 6 weeks being off but I do want the best results possible of what my own body is doing.
Then again would it REALLY make that much of a difference? I know you all get tested regularly on the hormones to see where your levels are at so does it really matter? Also don't I have to get certain tests like FSH, LH, E and P at different times of the month supposedly? Do you know when? Will my doc know this or do you find they just run them when you go in?
Sorry for all the questions but I want to be armed with info since I'm finally taking the plunge to do this and don't want to go doc to doc again if I don't have to. I'm also writing up a full background history since puberty and handing it over to her to review instead of trying to remember it all in a jumble. I've done that before and found docs to be grateful for that and looking for patterns (even though they still weren't helpful LOL).
QUOTE (shar14 @ Feb 6 2009, 05:15 PM)
Thanks everyone for the experiences and Sariah for the info on ordering my own labs. I FINALLY took the plunge and called today to schedule with an OB/GYN at Rush Women's Medical Center (here in Chicago as AA and you Sariah being from Illinois might know is a great hospital with cutting edge docs). I had held back so long on seeing docs because of the in and out insincere attitude and pats on the back that I was fine, all tests 'normal' and just hop on the BCPs with and antidepressant and feel better. Well that didn't work and I was SICK of docs!!! I have to get this straightened out though and if it means my livelihood and years of having to tweak hormones if I choose to take them then I'm on the rampage again to get a doc to LISTEN AND DO SOMETHING! It's about time they do and I think more women are speaking up so that they might be. I also requested a lady doc in hopes she'll understand more.
I'll update you kiddos and let you know but have a question if any might have a clue. As many know I stopped the progesterone cream because I was feeling crazy on it (though many of you ladies helped me realize I could have been on too high a dose and maybe just maybe I could benefit from a low dose...though admittedly I'm scared to try). So my appt being on the 27th this month the P cream should be atleast a little more out of my system for accurate results. Also I've been taking just a little dab of estrogel (1/2 a pump a day to 1 pump a day at most) to try counteracting the withdraws/symptoms of the P excess. Should I try decreasing/stopping this until the appt to get the most accurate results of what my levels might be? I think I read in Uzzi Reiss's book that to get accuracy all hormones must be decreased slowly then stopped for a complete 6 months to get a good accurate blood reading of your true levels. Well the E has seemed to help counteract some symptoms and it still wouldn't be 6 weeks being off but I do want the best results possible of what my own body is doing.
Then again would it REALLY make that much of a difference? I know you all get tested regularly on the hormones to see where your levels are at so does it really matter? Also don't I have to get certain tests like FSH, LH, E and P at different times of the month supposedly? Do you know when? Will my doc know this or do you find they just run them when you go in?
Sorry for all the questions but I want to be armed with info since I'm finally taking the plunge to do this and don't want to go doc to doc again if I don't have to. I'm also writing up a full background history since puberty and handing it over to her to review instead of trying to remember it all in a jumble. I've done that before and found docs to be grateful for that and looking for patterns (even though they still weren't helpful LOL).
I'll update you kiddos and let you know but have a question if any might have a clue. As many know I stopped the progesterone cream because I was feeling crazy on it (though many of you ladies helped me realize I could have been on too high a dose and maybe just maybe I could benefit from a low dose...though admittedly I'm scared to try). So my appt being on the 27th this month the P cream should be atleast a little more out of my system for accurate results. Also I've been taking just a little dab of estrogel (1/2 a pump a day to 1 pump a day at most) to try counteracting the withdraws/symptoms of the P excess. Should I try decreasing/stopping this until the appt to get the most accurate results of what my levels might be? I think I read in Uzzi Reiss's book that to get accuracy all hormones must be decreased slowly then stopped for a complete 6 months to get a good accurate blood reading of your true levels. Well the E has seemed to help counteract some symptoms and it still wouldn't be 6 weeks being off but I do want the best results possible of what my own body is doing.
Then again would it REALLY make that much of a difference? I know you all get tested regularly on the hormones to see where your levels are at so does it really matter? Also don't I have to get certain tests like FSH, LH, E and P at different times of the month supposedly? Do you know when? Will my doc know this or do you find they just run them when you go in?
Sorry for all the questions but I want to be armed with info since I'm finally taking the plunge to do this and don't want to go doc to doc again if I don't have to. I'm also writing up a full background history since puberty and handing it over to her to review instead of trying to remember it all in a jumble. I've done that before and found docs to be grateful for that and looking for patterns (even though they still weren't helpful LOL).
Shar,
I'd like to hear how you are doing on your hormones. I am suffering from severe depression and will be starting Bio HRT soon. I'm only 42, but I have some menopausal symptoms. Also my periods became irregular last fall and then straightened out. I have had my levels checked several times, and they fluctuate. I think that's the whole problem. The first time my FSH showed post menopausal and estrogen low and progesterone low. The next time the estrogen was normal and the progesterone low. The next time my estrogen was down low and the progesterone okay. I think they're constantly out of balance, but in different ways at different times. From just reading women's reactions to hrt, I get the impression that too much progesterone causes bad depression and too much estrogen causes anxiety. Of course, there are the conflicting reports from doctors - some who swear progesterone will fix depression and others vice versa. I tend to put more stock in what patients say rather than doctors, because they have lived it. So I don't know how much it matters to check your hormones, other than to determine that they are changing and you are perimenopausal. Because if they're always changing.....Well, I hope it works for you and I hope it works for me. I refused to go on progesterone alone - have heard too many bad stories. Now I have a naturopath who is giving me a compounded estrogen and a progesterone cream. I will be trying it soon. -surfin'
QUOTE (surfin4answers @ Feb 20 2009, 08:54 AM)
Shar,
I'd like to hear how you are doing on your hormones. I am suffering from severe depression and will be starting Bio HRT soon. I'm only 42, but I have some menopausal symptoms. Also my periods became irregular last fall and then straightened out. I have had my levels checked several times, and they fluctuate. I think that's the whole problem. The first time my FSH showed post menopausal and estrogen low and progesterone low. The next time the estrogen was normal and the progesterone low. The next time my estrogen was down low and the progesterone okay. I think they're constantly out of balance, but in different ways at different times. From just reading women's reactions to hrt, I get the impression that too much progesterone causes bad depression and too much estrogen causes anxiety. Of course, there are the conflicting reports from doctors - some who swear progesterone will fix depression and others vice versa. I tend to put more stock in what patients say rather than doctors, because they have lived it. So I don't know how much it matters to check your hormones, other than to determine that they are changing and you are perimenopausal. Because if they're always changing.....Well, I hope it works for you and I hope it works for me. I refused to go on progesterone alone - have heard too many bad stories. Now I have a naturopath who is giving me a compounded estrogen and a progesterone cream. I will be trying it soon. -surfin'
I'd like to hear how you are doing on your hormones. I am suffering from severe depression and will be starting Bio HRT soon. I'm only 42, but I have some menopausal symptoms. Also my periods became irregular last fall and then straightened out. I have had my levels checked several times, and they fluctuate. I think that's the whole problem. The first time my FSH showed post menopausal and estrogen low and progesterone low. The next time the estrogen was normal and the progesterone low. The next time my estrogen was down low and the progesterone okay. I think they're constantly out of balance, but in different ways at different times. From just reading women's reactions to hrt, I get the impression that too much progesterone causes bad depression and too much estrogen causes anxiety. Of course, there are the conflicting reports from doctors - some who swear progesterone will fix depression and others vice versa. I tend to put more stock in what patients say rather than doctors, because they have lived it. So I don't know how much it matters to check your hormones, other than to determine that they are changing and you are perimenopausal. Because if they're always changing.....Well, I hope it works for you and I hope it works for me. I refused to go on progesterone alone - have heard too many bad stories. Now I have a naturopath who is giving me a compounded estrogen and a progesterone cream. I will be trying it soon. -surfin'
Surf, as I've stated many times I am also suffering from major depression. Lately, I started using progesterone in the follicular phase, just a little to see what effects I would get. Actually, it has helped with the depression but that is because I think that my estrogen levels are high during this time and so I am thinking based on my bodies reaction that my progesterone levels were not high enough during this time... Did you get your levels tested during this time (follicular day 1-3 of cycle)? I was actually tested in the luteal phase (day 19-21) and found that my numbers were very low for both E and P, based on that and the fact that this is my most difficult time so I'm going to do a trial of E and P to see how it goes...
The thing is finding out your levels for each phase of your cycle and working closely with a good doctor that understands all of this. Unfortunately, I'm still trying to find one. Dr. Reiss recommends trying one hormone at a time to see how your body reacts to that and journaling the side effects and symptoms that you get, then adding a second hormone once you are comfortable with that, usually P later. Dr. Reiss' book is very good because he described several different scenarios and one in particular fit my profile with symptoms more so in the luteal phase...although I still am awaiting a call back from my new doctor to get her recommendations as well!
I'm hopeful, but as you have read this does require a great bit of trial and error, for some of us, to get the right dose that works for you... Given the fact that you have the depression, I would begin with a very small dose...
Good luck to you!
TJ
QUOTE (SKEEWEEAKA @ Feb 20 2009, 06:09 PM)
Surf, as I've stated many times I am also suffering from major depression. Lately, I started using progesterone in the follicular phase, just a little to see what effects I would get. Actually, it has helped with the depression but that is because I think that my estrogen levels are high during this time and so I am thinking based on my bodies reaction that my progesterone levels were not high enough during this time... Did you get your levels tested during this time (follicular day 1-3 of cycle)? I was actually tested in the luteal phase (day 19-21) and found that my numbers were very low for both E and P, based on that and the fact that this is my most difficult time so I'm going to do a trial of E and P to see how it goes...
The thing is finding out your levels for each phase of your cycle and working closely with a good doctor that understands all of this. Unfortunately, I'm still trying to find one. Dr. Reiss recommends trying one hormone at a time to see how your body reacts to that and journaling the side effects and symptoms that you get, then adding a second hormone once you are comfortable with that, usually P later. Dr. Reiss' book is very good because he described several different scenarios and one in particular fit my profile with symptoms more so in the luteal phase...although I still am awaiting a call back from my new doctor to get her recommendations as well!
I'm hopeful, but as you have read this does require a great bit of trial and error, for some of us, to get the right dose that works for you... Given the fact that you have the depression, I would begin with a very small dose...
Good luck to you!
TJ
The thing is finding out your levels for each phase of your cycle and working closely with a good doctor that understands all of this. Unfortunately, I'm still trying to find one. Dr. Reiss recommends trying one hormone at a time to see how your body reacts to that and journaling the side effects and symptoms that you get, then adding a second hormone once you are comfortable with that, usually P later. Dr. Reiss' book is very good because he described several different scenarios and one in particular fit my profile with symptoms more so in the luteal phase...although I still am awaiting a call back from my new doctor to get her recommendations as well!
I'm hopeful, but as you have read this does require a great bit of trial and error, for some of us, to get the right dose that works for you... Given the fact that you have the depression, I would begin with a very small dose...
Good luck to you!
TJ
Thank you TJ. I am new to all this hormone stuff. My most recent hormone test was on day 20 of my cycle. It was a urine test - don't know how accurate that was. The only thing that showed as low according to the lab's normal range was testosterone, although the estrogen was down towards the bottom of the "normal" range. Progesterone was not as low. The other two tests were blood tests, and they were taken earlier in the cycle. How do we know that what happens one month during the test is what happens the next month? It sounds like you have a monthly pattern. I think I used to, last year, have bouts of depression before my period. Now it is all the time, and any windows of relief seem to be few and far between and very random. I have tried to look for patterns, but it's as if the ovaries are just sputtering randomly. Or maybe my depression is not hormonally based. But I suspect it is. I have always had a little depression before and during my period. I had post partum depression and some post partum anxiety after each child. After my last child was born, 3 1/2 years ago, I had one major depressive swing the day after he was born. I understand that hormone levels drop rapidly after birth. So I know that I am sensitive to them. I am going to get the book you recommended and start educating myself. My naturopath ordered a compounded formula with estradiol, estriol and testosterone. So much for trying one at a time. I will definitely go with the low dose. Do women actually use different amounts / hormones during the different phases? (I thought progesterone was only for the second half.) It sounds like it might be a continuous rebalancing for a while.
QUOTE (surfin4answers @ Feb 20 2009, 07:34 PM)
Thank you TJ. I am new to all this hormone stuff. My most recent hormone test was on day 20 of my cycle. It was a urine test - don't know how accurate that was. The only thing that showed as low according to the lab's normal range was testosterone, although the estrogen was down towards the bottom of the "normal" range. Progesterone was not as low. The other two tests were blood tests, and they were taken earlier in the cycle. How do we know that what happens one month during the test is what happens the next month? It sounds like you have a monthly pattern. I think I used to, last year, have bouts of depression before my period. Now it is all the time, and any windows of relief seem to be few and far between and very random. I have tried to look for patterns, but it's as if the ovaries are just sputtering randomly. Or maybe my depression is not hormonally based. But I suspect it is. I have always had a little depression before and during my period. I had post partum depression and some post partum anxiety after each child. After my last child was born, 3 1/2 years ago, I had one major depressive swing the day after he was born. I understand that hormone levels drop rapidly after birth. So I know that I am sensitive to them. I am going to get the book you recommended and start educating myself. My naturopath ordered a compounded formula with estradiol, estriol and testosterone. So much for trying one at a time. I will definitely go with the low dose. Do women actually use different amounts / hormones during the different phases? (I thought progesterone was only for the second half.) It sounds like it might be a continuous rebalancing for a while.
Hey Surfin...
Well, it sounds like your testostserone and estradiol are low...and both need to be supplemented and both have to do with depression and serotonin levels in the brain... I'm not really sure about the consistency of the cycles...but I do have constant major depression. However, it is OFF THE CHARTS during the luteal phase and so I will begin there to see if I can get some relief. I've tried estrogen in the follicular phase and it simply made my depression worse, but then again I BELIEVE that is because my estrogen levels are still high during that phase. I just need to get tested to make certain that this is the case.
I also suffered from postpartrum depression and anxiety and was told and have read that is due to PROGESTERONE DEFICIENCY... Usually, women use estradiol continually and progesterone during the luteal phase. Some use testosterone cream and some do not. However, those who use pellets where the capsules are placed underneath the skin that contain estradiol and testosterone, and supplement progesterone during the luteal phase use testosterone continually as well...
The reason that they suggest beginning with one hormone is so that you can become familiar with how that hormone makes you feel and some of the side effects. Then when you add the other hormone, usually progesterone, you will know when E is to high or P is to high.... With the combination products, it is difficult to determine, for some, which hormone is creating the problem UNLESS you have a good doctor that you can consult! For me, if E is too high my breasts start to get sore and have pains in them and my fibroids start to hurt and I get instantly depressed and have fast weight gain, oh and I feel bloated...if P is too high I feel a little TOO CALM... Some people experience different side effects....
As far as cyclical dosing, some women do use the hormones cyclically only using them when they feel at their worst....but most use estrogen continuously and progesterone for two weeks only... I think if you are estrogen dominant, then things are very different, however!
TJ
H TJ and shar and all again,
Maybe this was a better place to put what has happened to me on a bioidentical progesterone cream. I was on it for 7 days 2 grams 2 x per day then it hit BIG TIME! Been off now for about 4 days but still recovering, got my period now and still VERY weird in the head. When it hit I was spinning out, dizzy, woozy, also I cried at the slightest thing, at church, everything, then I'd find myself babbling crazily chatting to my daughter or someone, then there were sort of temple headaches. Getting to sleep is like being on a ride at the fun park, hyper dreams, can't get comfortable. Still, now, I feel like I can't get my thoughts together, still I feel like I'm out of my mind! Obviously it was too much too soon. but after THIS if I settle down (WHICH I HOPE I DO!!!) I don't know what I'll trust.
There's still a lot of controversy about all these HRTs isn't there. It's pretty hard to make sense of it all. So much controversial and conflicting information.
Here in Australia we have to go to certain doctors and certain chemists that do the compounding. It's illegal to sell HRT over the counter.
Well, I'm going to see if i can get hormone tests tomorrow and have to wait till May to get into a doctor that specialists in menopause but I sure hope things settle down soon!!
THANKS for all the info and help here!!
Love from down under
Janette
Maybe this was a better place to put what has happened to me on a bioidentical progesterone cream. I was on it for 7 days 2 grams 2 x per day then it hit BIG TIME! Been off now for about 4 days but still recovering, got my period now and still VERY weird in the head. When it hit I was spinning out, dizzy, woozy, also I cried at the slightest thing, at church, everything, then I'd find myself babbling crazily chatting to my daughter or someone, then there were sort of temple headaches. Getting to sleep is like being on a ride at the fun park, hyper dreams, can't get comfortable. Still, now, I feel like I can't get my thoughts together, still I feel like I'm out of my mind! Obviously it was too much too soon. but after THIS if I settle down (WHICH I HOPE I DO!!!) I don't know what I'll trust.
There's still a lot of controversy about all these HRTs isn't there. It's pretty hard to make sense of it all. So much controversial and conflicting information.
Here in Australia we have to go to certain doctors and certain chemists that do the compounding. It's illegal to sell HRT over the counter.
Well, I'm going to see if i can get hormone tests tomorrow and have to wait till May to get into a doctor that specialists in menopause but I sure hope things settle down soon!!
THANKS for all the info and help here!!
Love from down under
Janette
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