I'm just venting here, and I know there's nothing I can do about it. But the mother of the groom is royally pizzing me off these days.

My daughter's church wedding complete with a reception will be held in the evening. I have chosen, way back when, as did she, a formal gown to wear, mocha color. She will wear a formal bridal gown, floor length. Her attendants are to wear formal gowns, floor length.

Now my information that I've always known, is that the MOB chooses the order of the day, sort of dictated/mandated, by the time of day (evening) which makes it a more *formal* occasion, but also by what the bride chooses as the attire for the attendants, formal/floor-length.

So I chose a floor length gown (and feel like a fish out of water wearing it, I'm a blue jeans/t-shirt kinda gal). Took me months to find it, because #1) I'm too picky, and see above - feel like a fish out of water in anything *formal*. But finally did find a long gown that was suitable, ordered it.

Now my information has been, accdg. to the etiquette books I've read, that the MOB sorta cues in the MOG, ......... as to the order of the day for attire, color/style, etc., diplomatically/tactfully. That the MOB should, if not already asked (and I hadn't been) by the MOG, the MOB can maybe call the MOG and maybe make friendly conversation and mention that she found just the right dress, and thereby go into descrbing it, floor length, color, etc. That is sort of the *clue* to the MOG what the *order of the day* is, as to attire. Obviously one wouldn't call and dictate , as in .............. "Listen here's what I'm wearing so you do the same". That would be beyond tacky to do so. So that's what I did, months ago, when I ordered the dress. Called the woman (bear in mind, any phone calls that have transpired between me and the MOG, have been at my initiation, she hasn't called me once, not one single time, and anything that has been asked of her has been like pulling teeth, I think the woman is just completely clueless). Made friendly conversation with her, expressed what a time I'd had trying to find something suitable, etc. Mentioned the description of the dress, mocha in color, floor length, sequined at the bodice, short sleeve.

I "thought" the woman would take her sort of *cue* from that, and plan accordingly. I thought wrong.

Per my daughter (who btw, doesn't have an issue with this) the MOG has picked a beige-ish sort of pants suit, with a sequined lapel. Now I fear that I am going to stand out like a sore thumb, .............. in a long floor length gown, while the MOG is in a pants suit. And ........... had I known that was an option, .......... maybe I'd of done the same, found a very nice/elegant pants suit. But I didn't even think of it, truly. I just figured, my information was, if the guys are wearing tuxes (and they are), if the attendants to the bride are wearing floor length gowns, (and they are), if it's an evening wedding (it is), then the order of the day is that the MOB, wear a floor length gown also.

But the woman continues to muck up the works, all along the way. I guess I should be used to it. She, when asked months and months ago to put together for me, pics of her son growing up, all the years, maybe just 15 or so pics, of his growing up years (for a special project I'd intended to do), she never produced same. Never has. Daughter, in the interest of not making waves, just said *forget it mom, we just won't do it*, rather than cause a problem asking for the pics yet again, that the woman can't/won't seem to produce and bring forward. So we dropped it. Won't do that special little video montage we had planned.

Had asked way way back when, how many folks she thought might be on her end, as a head count, ......... asked the bride and groom numerous times, and asked the mother a couple of times, as I went forth, planning a caterer, a venue, (it's capacity), a wedding planner/decorator (charges per head), ............ had been told by the MOG "oh 45 at the very most". I had asked way way way back, if she'd get a list together for me, obviously too soon for invites to go out (and it was at that time, too soon, and I said so), if she'd get me a list together, so I could plan accordingly. She never did. I did, with more urgency, ask in October, beginning of October for same, and mention that I'd like to get my hands on the list before the rush of the holiday season if possible (this is now my urgent request, I'd been *nice* about it before, and vague as to any timeline, but this time I put a little more urgency on it). Asked beginning of October. Mentioned that I'd like to have my hands on the guest list, before the rush of the holiday season, as my mom would be doing the handwriting (she has good penmanship, as opposed to myself, or my daughter - who do not). That my mother had requested, that if she is going to be doing so, she'd like to get them done before the holiday season if possible. So I told the MOG same. T-giving came upon us and I still didn't have list in hand. At that point, I got ugly, with the bride and groom and told them that I want the list, and like NOW.

They did produce the list from the MOG. I had been told by the woman, by the bride and groom, *oh 45 people, at most* on that end. The list that makes it's way over here, had 85 people on it. Now mind you, I have already ordered invitations based on my head count plus her head count, I had already selected a venue based on a head count on my end, her end, ............ (would not accomodate another 40 people), I had already contracted with the decorator, the caterer, etc., based on a verbal head count given to me, as 45 on her end, and whatever I had, which was like 50. And the list shows up here, with 85 souls on it. I blew a gasket. Truly did.

I had already told the woman, and that never produced, to find me some pics of her son (asked the son/groom), that never did come forth, we gave up on it, rather than make waves.

I had asked an asked for a guest list, and didn't get it til I showed my butt over it. And then it shows up here, almost double what had been verbalized as a head count. I blew a gasket. I did give the list back to my daughter (the bride) and told her, in not so nice terms, that she can take the list back to her future mil and trim it down to 45 people, as what she told me would be the guest list on her end. My daughter and her future dh, were sort of taken back at how angry I got at the whole proposition. But they did so. Took it back to her, and told her, I don't know what. But what I got back in conversation with my daughter on the whole topic was that his mother said "oh well they won't all come". Well the dumb woman, ............. she isn't footing the bill for ANY of this, not one iota, hasn't offered, (doesn't have to, it's the bride's family that does so - I realize that), ........... but you don't send a list that is almost double with you verbalized as a head count, and then claim "oh they won't come". Somebody has to plan on the fact that they just might, ............. and pay accordingly. AND .......... the venue had already been selected based on the head count given to me, I had about 50, she'd told me 45, and the venue, .......... capacity is 115.

So I don't know, I guess my daughter and her future dh, maybe went back and told his mom,blow by blow, just how ugly I'd gotten over it. I don't know. But the word I got back from my daughter was that the poor woman, the poor mistx'd woman, poor poor put upon thing, .............. she had expressed that she'd of liked to have been a part of planning all this, but nobody asked her. I said to my daughter as she told me that sob story, "did she ask?, did she ask you, can she be a part of things?, she could've called me and expressed same, heck everything I've asked of the woman has been like pulling teeth to get it, she never has produced the pics I asked for, nor has her son,............. so we dropped it, I had to show my arse to get the invitation list that I asked for, ....... did she ever express to you that she wanted to be a part of planning things?". My daughter said (again, poor poor pitiful soul that was left out of the loop here), ......... "she didn't want to step on anybody's toes".

Poor poor pitiful put upon woman that this evil mean MOB over here would be planning this whole thing and never even give the woman one moment's thought that she might be interested in joining the festivities as to the planning. How could the MOB (me) be so thoughtless.

So, along the way, I ask "what do they have planned for the rehearsal dinner?, have you heard?". Oh yes, they will have bque brought in, to their b'yard under a tent. Now they have a really small (just as we do) house, and their b'yard is not some picturesque lakefront/waterfront setting. It's just (as is mine) your basic b'yard that backs up to a chain link fence, which borders another person's yard. Nothing scenic about it. But I guess that's what they deem appropriate for a rehearsal dinner. Bride and Groom, don't seem to have a problem with that.

I think if the truth were known, my daughter would like to have a problem with a lot, but wont' do so, .......... she doesn't want to start out the relationship with her new family as the picky bridezilla, so she goes with the flow. When I raise my hackles over how some things transpire, then I am enemy #1, because I'm making waves. So I quit, making waves.

I had asked periodically (my daughter/bride) if she knows what the MOG has picked for her to wear to the wedding. Forever, the answer was no, that she didn't know. Until the other day, when I asked, again. My daughter tells me the woman has found a beige-ish pantsuit with a sequined lapel. Sounds lovely, ........... but not for what I had envisioned as the attire for the evening, I'm wearing a formal gown for goodness sakes. That's what I chose, as that's what the bride chose, as her bridesmaids attire, and the tuxes as the guys attire. But the MOG has chosen a beige-ish sort of pants suit, (sounds dressy, yes ........at least she had the sense to pick a dressy pants suit), ........... but now I'm going to stand out like a sore thumb, in a formal gown, while she is in a pants suit.

But no I didn't say one word to my daughter. I have raised my hackles enough over enough that has gone on, and as I said above, I think my daughter wants to not be seen as the bride from haides, ............ so she goes with the flow. When I "don't" do so, then I end up on the other end of some pretty serious wrath from my daughter, because I have some *opinions*.

The only thing I did say was "well that sounds nice, wish I'd of done that".

My daughter snapped at me angrily "YOU COULD HAVE". I said "Oh I know, I could have, if I'd of thought of it, I didn't think of it". She said "WELL YOU COULD HAVE". I said "I know, but my dress is already bought, and is presently being altered, I paid too much for it, so I'll just wear that". Nothing more was said.

That woman, AND my daughter, are infuriating me to the ends of the earth.

And I have to be around that woman next weekend for a bridal shower. I swear it's all I can do to keep my mouth shut and be diplomatic and tactful, and even friendly to her. I have had it with her.

Just venting. Hopefully somebody has some input on all this.

So sorry to hear you are having hassles at this wonderful time in you and your daughter's lives. I do NOT think you will stick out like a sore thum. I think the MOG will stick out in a pants suit when all the other women in bridal party are wearing long, formal gowns.

The MOB usually DOES all the planning. Although when my daughter got married, we did ask the groom's family if there was anything special they wanted to have in the whole event and there were a couple nice things we incorporated.

Sounds like this woman is clueless. Even if she doesn't know wedding protocol, when asked for a guest headcount, the least she could do was get it to you when she asked.

It may be that she is worried about how money they will be asked to spend on things. That's always a dicey subjecty. I wonder if she knows that the groom's family bays for the bridal bouquet, all the men's boutenieres (spelling?), and the corsages for the moms and grandmoms in the bridal party. Our florist had a nice way of calling that MOG and telling them what their part would be. And we didn't pick any expensive flowers, being sensitive to the costs all around.

Your daughter is right to go with the flow. She doesn't need to hear about these squabbles years down the road, especially if you all live in the same small town.

Take a deep breath, and enjoy the day. Don't let anyone spoil it for your daughter.

WriterMom

Your daughter is probably just as mad as you,but guess what? you are the only one she would dare take it out on.She is getting ready to be made a part of this family and just wants to keep the peace.I feel for her marrying into a family that can't make a simple decision.The absolute best thing you can do is call your daughter tell her you love her,hope the wedding is wonderful and that you will do your best to make it that way.I bet she will be so relieved.Tell her that no matter how aggravating the other woman is you will not allow it to ruin her perfect day-and mean it.She is your baby-show her how much you will go through for her.From this moment on pretend the other mother does not exist-because this day is about your baby girl.Be polite when needed,do all the things needed and graciously begin your daughters new life on a bright note.When it is all said and done the memories will not be of the mother of the groom-but of the beautiful bride.Afterwards you can be proud of yourself for being a wonderful mom,and you will not have to deal with the silly mog untill grandbabies come!!!GOD-bless

As to whether she has concerns over being asked to fork over the pocketbook, that hasn't been an issue. The agreement, from the very start was that her father and myself would pay for the reception in its entirity.

The church, the wedding itself, would be split in half. They are to pay their half (the bride and groom). Whether he goes to his family with what "their end" of the expense it, I don't know.

I guess I am to be faulted with not having gone to his family with anything on the order of whether they have anything they'd like specially incorporated into the event. That much hasn't been done, other than to have the groom ask if there are any special songs his family would like played by the dj, and to have he and his mother pick a song for the MOG and groom dance.

But yes, the woman is absolutely clueless.

The crowning blow of course was when I blew my gasket the fact that she sent over here, only after I threw a fit ............. having been patient long enough, ........ a guest list that was almost double what had originally been verbalized as a number/head-count. I did blow a gasket, here in my own home, and sent it back via the bride and groom, for alteration. Some not so kind words were said about the woman in the process, and yes probably in the presence of the groom. But I had, HAD ENOUGH.

When my daughter came home from there (she had gone to return the list for alteration, she her soon to be dh), she was oh so sullen, and oh so calm and almost as if she was trying to make me out to be the villan here. In her oh so calm demeanor as she explained to me that the mother, the poor, ..... other mother, her feelings were hurt over there, that she had wanted to be a part of things, all along, but hadn't been asked and didn't wanna step on anybody's toes.

Folks the woman has not called me, not once. About any of this. What kind of relationship did she have with her future dil, that she didn't feel she could go to her future dil, if not the MOB and ask to be a part of things. Oh but she can whip out that sympathy card, once her arse is in a crack over having dragged her feet on what she'd been asked to do. That was the crowning blow, as far as I was concerned. And more so, that my daughter seemingly bought it, hook-line-and-sinker. Poor poor woman, she'd been so put upon over there. The evil mean MOB over here throwing a hissy fit over the guest list, and never even had the graciousness to ask for any input from her.

She is clueless. And yes I realize my daughter has to walk a tight rope in all this. This will be her new family for the rest of her life and she's wise to weigh that accordingly. I do realize that.

But I guess, my charge is to not let it all get me to the point of white-hot rage, which is precisely what it is doing.

<SIGH> Maybe somehow it'd be easier if my daughter did verbalize, to me, that her future mil is infuriating her also. She doesn't do so. She used to, for forever there was little to no relationship there between she and his family. In fact when they'd go that way (they both still live in their respective family homes, he with his family, she with hers) .......... it would be pretty obvious that their presence there wasn't really welcome. They weren't made to feel welcome there, for reasons that were never really very clear. Both he and she, being very family-oriented, spent a LOT of time here, in this household, even to the exclusion of doing what most folks their age do,which is to go hang out with a huge passle of friends. There wasn't much there, for a long long time, and the woman didn't seem to have much interest in their lives, individually or as a couple. It used to infuriate my daughter, and she would express same.

That has, seemingly, changed some over the last several mos. Maybe the other mother over there has gotten on board and finally realized on some level that this new gal that keeps coming around and has for several years, is gonna be around for many years to come. She better get on board. And so that has changed some, thankfully, for all involved.

All throughout this wedding planning, my daughter has had me at the helm, planning the whole thing. She has provided precious little input, opting instead to defer to me and my judgement. I would try to solicit her input, and more times than not, her response would be along the order of "mom just do what you think is best, I trust your judgement, ........... I don't know what's to be done, you do, so you just do it". And I did so, all along the way, willingly.

When I couldn't get the woman (or her son, the groom) to be forthcoming with the small collection of childhood pics asked for, we gave up on that, instead of making waves. Not that important an issue, and a nice place to trim the budget, we'll do without that video montage we thought we'd do. Not worth the trouble to make a problem out of it.

When I asked her way back in July if she'd come up with a preliminary list, as a head-count, it went nowhere. True, it wasn't crucial that I have it at that point, and I said as much, in conversation to her. But again, not forthcoming.

When I got a little more insistent, in October (as, at that point, it was becoming more crucial that I get my hands on a bonafide list), ........... still it wasn't forthcoming. Not until I showed my arse about it, at t-giving, having not yet rec'd it, and the crush of the holidays, .......... which I'd mentioned wanting to have the list in my hands, in advance of the holidays, holidays now upon us. No list in hand. The list comes, almost double with had been mentioned as a head count. Did the woman ever pick up the phone and call me to discuss the fact that she'd given me a verbal head-count mos. ago amounting to 45 folks at most, yet her written head-count was coming to 85, was that gonna be a problem. Nope, she didn't.

When I inquired as to what their plans were as to a rehearsal dinner, it was said initially that it would be paid for by the groom's bio dad (lives in another state, and is a real playboy, ......... big spender .............. ON HIMSELF and his persuits). It was said initially that the bio dad would be footing the bill for the rehearsal dinner and that it was to be at ________________swanky italian restaurant. I thought, wow, how nice. But as the mos. waned on, and no word was spoken of it. Next thing I knew, it was asked if the church hall would be available for the rehearsal dinner. That they'd pay a caterer and have it at the church hall. I guess the church hall's rent was too pricey, so they opted for a bque brought in, into the b'yard of their home, under a tent. How completely and utterly stupid. But I never uttered one word as to my thoughts on it. I knew not to. By that time, it was becoming apparent that my daughter was joining the ranks of trying to get along, and go along .......... with whatever is said on that end. I didn't dare utter a word, that I think that's about the stupidest idea I've ever heard of. Still haven't other than here in this forum, or to those who will not let her know my thoughts on it.

And no I'm not being so arrogant as to not realize that maybe that's the best they can do, the best they can afford. But that isn't the case. The lifestyle they live, the gadgets they purchase, the vacations they take, etc. etc. It's not the money. That can't be the reason for choosing their b'yard as the venue for the rehearsal dinner. Because their lifestyle speaks to the fact that they "can" afford to do better. So they obviously just "choose" to spend their money (and true, it is THEIR money to spend however they see fit), cutting corners for a b'yard bque for a rehearsal dinner. I happen to think that's really cheesy, and in poor taste when you consider this isn't a casual sort of affair that has been put together, this is more on the order of formal. But they are throwing a b'yard evening rehearsal dinner bque under a tent, in their humble abode. My home is humble too, ........ thus I didn't choose to hold any of the events here.

Then I guess I made the mistake of asking. Does one not even ask? One just shows up and if the MOG is in something hideous, oh well, her fault, her deal, whatever. I dunno. Maybe I shouldn't of even asked. Maybe that is being too intrusive. I had asked along the way over the last several mos, especially since I'd put the word out as to what it is I'd finally found to wear, whether or not his mother had come up with something to wear. The answer, forever, had been no. But there didn't seem to be any real concern either. His mother, apprently, not as picky as I am, not many are I don't think. Until finally the other day when I asked, and was told that the mother did find a beige-ish sort of pants suit with a sequin lapel. Again, inside I was steaming. But you'd of never known it. I am trying to be gracious and say nothing ugly about the woman in my daughter's presence, that will be her family ........... and out of respect for her and her future husband, I am trying to bite my tongue. I simply responded "oh that sounds nice, wish I'd of thought of that". Inside, ........... not my sentiments, but that's what I responded.

So I am doing my level best to shut my mouth and be gracious and make this all that it can be/should be for my daughter and without any hinderances from her opinionated mother. I truly am.

And in so doing, I'm having to bite off the inside of my cheek to not "say" what's on my mind with regard to the woman. As I said, maybe if my daughter verbalized, like she used to, .............. the things that the woman is doing, are also infuriating her, I wouldn't be "as mad and infuriated", somehow. But she doesn't. It seems no matter what is said or done on that end, it's all fine and hunkey dorey. But if I so much as utter one cross word, the wrath is ugly. So I keep my mouth shut, tight.

A good for instance, .......... the dress I bought is floor length. I'd considered having it altered to tea-length. Only because I would like that better myself, would feel a little less like a fish out of water, it's just a little less formal. But my daughter vetoe'd that idea. She doesn't want me to do so. She likes the dress I am to wear, and it's length. In fact, when we were at the dress shop and having it pinned for alteration, I asked the seamstress to take it up to tea length, just so I could see it,........... my daughter sitting there. She said "no mom, no, don't do that, I like it floor length, I like it that way, please don't do that". So I told the seamstress not to do it. Leave it alone. Yet the woman over there, the MOG, decides to wear a pants suit, and all is well. Not a word is said.

Oh well, you can tell I am steamed, royally, about all this. But as I said before, my charge is going to be to get through this with the grace I know I can exhibit and with poise and class. Somehow. Next to impossible, but somehow I'll do so.

Oh but she can whip out that sympathy card, once her arse is in a crack over having dragged her feet on what she'd been asked to do

Yes, it sounds to me that this is exactly what happened. I think you have every right to vent and I'm glad you found a place here to do that. I think you have every right to be annoyed with your daughter for taking MOG's side too. You are after all going through all of this just for her... weddings and especially the planning of them are stressful times and exhasting times... somehow though you have to be able to shake this off because once the wedding is over, you need to be able to look back and enjoy the memory otherwise all your hard work and hard earned money will be for naught.

While MOG may have responded in defense, the truth may be that she is unaware of protocol and felt embarrassed or moreso she was probably embarrassed that she was caugt procrastinating and called on it... nonetheless.. this is your gift to your daughter.. so don't let MOG steal that joy. And if at all possible try to start building roads of friendship now, this is the same woman who will share your grandchildren..

I'm sure the wedding will be beautiful!

(((Hugs)))

You have all my sympathy. I would be so pissed off by now, if I were in your place.

I don't know how good this idea is but I wonder if, for the additional guests that weren't planned for... could you tell your daughter and the groom that they should trim the list down to 45 or 50 guests and that if no one will trim it down, you'll just start at the top of the list and send out only 45 invitations, then if the grooms parents want the other 40 guests, they can send out the invitations for he remaining 40 guests that they want over and above the ones you'd expected. Tell them that it's just too much added expense and not what you had budgeted for.

Beyond that, it seems to me like you should probably just sit back, take a deep breath and let things go as they are. Tell your daughter that you will do what you can to finish planning things but if everything falls apart because of the groom's family's decisions, that you can't help that. If your daughter REALLY wants a good wedding she will maybe speak up, if not, you can't be blamed for any problems that come from having too many people.

As for the dress, it is your daughter's wedding, not your's and not the groom's family's. If she likes you wearing the long MOB dress then wear it for HER. If you have a gracious attitude and wear the dress with confidence, you may find that you shine beautifully and no one will notice any difference in the mother's clothes. Most people will be looking at your daughter and not you. Pictures will most likely not have both mothers in them at the same time either so there should be little opportunity to compare you with the MOG side by side.

Maybe try the mantra "I love my daughter. I'm doing it all for her."

Good Luck. I don't envy you.

SIGH

Back, to vent some more. I don't know what I'm going to do with this woman. I have to get through this wedding. But my daughter has to put up with this woman for the rest of her life. Good luck with that, is all I can say.

Forgot to mention the one other thing, in prior posts, that the woman had been responsible for, and failed to do. The woman's stepdaughter (who my daughter, the bride, isn't particularly close to) had been asked to be a bridesmaid in the wedding, and the gal accepted. The gal (the stepdaughter) is a teen mom and as such can't afford a bridesmaid dress, and that was known from the outset, but the MOG had volunteered to pay for the dress for her stepdaughter. The dresses were to have been ordered (per the dress shop) in September (which IMO was too early, but whatever). September approached and my daughter got with the stepdaughter, and the MOG and clued them in, that it was time to go and order the dress. Repeated reminders throughout the month of September and into October. It never did happen. The stepdaughter, there is no love-loss there for the stepmother (the MOG). They can barely be in the same room together. So the MOG refused, ...after, she says, repeated attempts to get her stepdaughter on the right page and get this thing moving forward, refused to try anymore. My daughter, in the middle, playing social worker, trying to motivate the stepdaughter, trying to motivate the MOG ......... *c'mon guys, let's get this done, the dresses have to be ordered*. Nope. Nothin doin. Finally in complete exasperation my daughter relieved the stepdaughter of the duties as a bridesmaid and found a friend to step in. The friend couldn't afford a bridesmaid dress either, but to the MOG's credit, she did pay for same, even though it wasn't, ............. in the end .............. her stepdaughter as the recipient of same, but a friend of my daughter's. But my point, ......... that was one more thing the MOG had been asked to assist with, and failed to come through on.

The latest transpirings however, are just beyond the pale. I am trying SO VERY HARD to maintain a peaceful outcome in all this and not cross the woman, but I swear, inspite of my best efforts I still end up in the soup with her.

I've had it with her. I really have.

We did get back on the kick of trying to put the video montage together for the wedding, something my daughter really did want, in the end. I put that in her corner to deal with her future mil on, .......... I had asked, and never rec'd the pics that I requested, I wasn't going to keep banging my head against a brick wall. I put the ball in my daughter's (the bride) court. We drug out the pics that we'd compiled of her, growing up years, stages of her life, infancy, babyhood, toddlerhood, child, pre-teen, teen, and young woman, to today. A compilation of maybe 15 pics in total. Put those altogether, and daughter contacted and put that back on the agenda with her future mil. Made plans to go over and the two of them go through some pics together, to try and get some pics of the groom's growing up years, to do this video montage we have in mind. My daughter took with her, the compilation we'd put together, so as to show by example, what it is we have in mind. They sat and went through some pics, but from the sounds of it, she was run rough-shod over in that setting, as they "dictated, mandated" what pics would be utilized.

The pics she came home with, about 50 of them (way too many), .............. way way too many. But the problem, almost every single one of them, were pics of the groom as a baby. There were a couple as a child, young child, but that was it. Scads of pics of him as a baby, ..... scads and scads of them. And then a couple of him as a young child, and then BAM, grown man. Nothing in between. Even my daughter's dad (my dh) who is so clueless in all of this and the planning of it all, and pays about as much attention to it all as the family dog, even he, as we sat trying to pick out pics in that stack, and make this some sort of workable situation, even he spoke up *what's up with that?, where's the pics of him as a young man, a teen?, this is it? this is all she gave you?, ........... it's all baby pics, nothing of him as a young man, a teen, what was she thinking?".

So there, again. The MOG mucking up the works.

We did manage to put together what we had, and I guess anybody that knows the truest sense of what we were trying to achieve will notice a glaring absence of some stages in his life in the pic compilation, but those that don't, maybe it'll be lost on them, and no worse for the wear. So we moved on past that. Did the best we could with it.

So there was that.

Then this.

The invitations went out several weeks ago, complete with enclosures of reception cards, and RSVP cards and return pre-printed address on the envelopes and postage paid. The requested return date, 2/28/09. Now I am aware the return date has not arrived yet.

However, almost all on our side of things have responded. All but about 2 or 3 of them 50 some odd invitations that went out for our side.

On their side, almost *none* have responded. Of the 45 people they were allowed to invite on that side, ............. I only have 3 responses, for a total of 8 people. That's it. Now I realize the requested return date is not yet upon us, so no need to panic.

However, ............ I have mentioned to my daughter that if we don't begin to get some RSVP cards rolling in from their side, in the next week or so, it may become necessary for the MOG to get on the phone and see what she can do to scare up some return RSVP's, or responses in some way. This thing costs money, per head and I need responses here. I need to know whether to plan on the folks invited on that side. Leaving things open-ended is not an option, not for my pocketbook. That's precisely why I went to the expense of doing it right, with the pre-printed return envelopes complete with postage paid, and the enclosures of RSVP cards and reception cards, etc., etc. Not for folks to sit on them, and not return them.

I guess my daughter had mentioned in passing, that we are not seemingly receiving any responses from that side.

So the MOG asked my daughter the other night, if she would get the list for their side, and return the phone call, and tell her (the MOG) who, for their side has failed to respond, that her mother (the groom's g'mother, no I don't know why it would be the groom's g'mother that would be doing so, none of my biz, didn't ask) told my daughter to get the list of who hasn't responded and call her (call the MOG), the MOG was going to pass it along to "her" mother (the groom's g'mother) to begin calling some folks.

My daughter came to me, I printed out the list off the computer, explained to my daughter the showing there that there is a glaring lack of checkmarks by their side of things, and those are the specific names that I have no rec'd responses on, some 34 people in total, that have not yet responded.

My daughter called the MOG, and read down the list, name by name of who hasn't responded. To each and every name that was named, the MOG responded *Oh I talked to her, she is definitely coming*, *Oh I just saw them the other day, they are excited, they are for sure coming*, *Oh I just saw him the other day, yes they can't wait, they'll be here for sure*. This was said, of each and every name that was read by my daughter.

My daughter brought the list back to me, "Mom she says that every one of these folks are coming, she's talked to them, they are coming". I said "well are they sending RSVP's, are they going to call these folks and request they send the RSVP's we paid for, back to us, I'd kind of like to have something more than just a verbal okay from the MOG as to whether their side of the guest list will indeed be there, since we PAID for these things, it'd be nice if folks would return them, or at least most of them anyway, ............. do you know if they still intend to make some phone calls or what?". My daughter didn't know. She seemed ot be under the impression that perhaps no, perhaps since the MOG seemed to be aware that each and every name on that list called out, read out, to her was indeed coming, or at least MOG believes that to be the case, ......... that would suffice, maybe indeed, they aren't now going to get on the phone. No need to.

Aside from the fact is the issue that a week or so ago when it was mentioned to the MOG that we were experiencing a lack of response on that side of the family with regard to RSVP's, ............. the MOG told my daughter this *well I don't know, a lot of those folks have kids, and you guys excluded kids from coming, so I don't know maybe they won't be coming*.

But, somehow, my daughter, on the phone with the woman, reading off the list of who hasn't responded, the woman, name for name, assures that they are, each and every individual read out, coming. My daughter didn't seem to be aware of whether there was now any intention of going forth with some phone calls.

I said to my daughter "Look do you care if I call her, I'll be nice, <she knows that the woman loathes me, because of the things I've said about her, that her son went and told her, real smart huh?>, she knows that I don't really care for her future mil, so I ran it by my daughter, would it be okay if I call her myself, just to assure myself that there will be some initiative to make contact with the folks on their behalf, and see what they can do to scare up some return RSVP's in this direction. Because this is a matter now, of over $600. If I pay for all these folks, ............. and I do so only on the *verbal* that they are coming, from out of the MOG's mouth, and not a RSVP card in hand, .............. then I've just paid out money that may not have been necessary. Especially when it was said less than week ago that there may be a problem with a lot of them coming, expressly because kids were omitted, yet now, it seems *oh they are coming, I talked to them* seems to be the line. I'm just not real excited about going ahead with a head-count to the caterer on a "verbal" okay from the MOG (who isn't helping to pay for ANY of this, hasn't offered, nor has she been asked).

My daughter was okay with it.

So I called the woman back. I started out with "hi __________, how are you?". I get back a curt "fine". Nothing more I went on "Listen I was talking to my daughter, and I know you and she just discussed this guest list, and the lack of responses from the groom's side, and she says that you assure, you've talked to each of them and they do intend to come, I just kind of wanted to get a feel for whether or not there will be some effort to get some of those RSVP cards back this way, I know we aren't upon the deadline yet, so no need to panic, but the concern here is this, this is a lot of money to fork over, the vendors, the all charge per person attending, eating, etc. ............ I really kind of need more than just a verbal, if possible, .......... I mean we did pay for the postage on those pre-printed addressed envelopes, that was an expense there, but I'm just not sure I'm willing to fork over the .......... over $600 it'll cost, to accomodate folks that haven't returned RSVP cards".

She jumped me. She was angry right out of the gate (the truth of the matter is, she is aware of some of the ugly things that have been said about her, out of my mouth, thanks to my soon to be sil, .............. telling her, real smart on his behalf, ............. I think the woman would rather have a root canal than find herself in a phone conversation with me). She jumped me right out of the gate. She said in response, angrily "so youre saying if you don't get an RSVP card back in your hands for every single last one on that list, they can't come?!?!?!?!?!?!?".

I responded "no, no of course not, I realize there will always be a few scragglers, folks that loose the RSVP card, get distracted and forget, that happens, I undertand and am prepared for that yes, a few, but not the over 30 that we presently have no, we have 34 people at this point, that I don't have responses for, .............. that's over $600 to pay for all those folks. now if they are coming, and I have assurance of same, via the RSVP card available to them, then fine, but without that, I'm just not real sure ..............".

She cut me off "well what you're saying then is that you want an RSVP card back in your hands for every single solitary one of those folks then right?!??!?!?!".

I responded after a moment of hesitation for wondering why this woman is so hostile, in tone, I hesitated, a moment of frustrated dead silence on the phone line, as I gathered my own witts about me, in an effort not to blast her, and just keep the status quo, maintain peace, at all cost, I responded after a moment of silence, "no, as I was saying, I"m fully aware that there will always be a few who loose their cards, that's a given, I'm aware of that, and you have nothing but a verbal on them, that's all you're going to get, I realize that, but not for the 34 souls we presently have, what I'm trying to get here, is whether or not you plan to attempt to contact these folks and see what you can do to get them to return their RSVP cards, you indicate that they do plan to come, I'd just like, I am turning these things over to my caterer as a head-count of sorts, I'd like to have my hands on the return RSVP cards".

She jumped again, interrupted me, "Well I told <my daughters name> that my mother was going to be calling these folks, but she won't HAVE IT DONE TONIGHT (yelling at me at this point), my father is going in for angioplasty and she will be busy with that, so it may take her a few days, but I already told ___________ <my daughter> that my mother would be calling them, to find out.

Yes she did tell my daughter that, in the initial conversation between the two of them, it was the subsequent conversation wherein she assured name by name that was read, that so and so was coming for sure, oh such and such for sure is coming, and no further mention of intention to phone call any of these guests that haven't responded. Thus my phone call to her, to try to ascertain whether that was still an intention, ............ as the person here footing the bill for same, I'd like something, if possible, a little more concrete than what the MOG has to say, since she seems to sway from the fact that she thinks no one will come because we xcluded children (daughter's choice, and she knows that, but I don't think she agrees with that as a choice, but too bad, not her decision to make). So, all I was trying to do was to get a feel for whether this is something that they intended to follow up on. And the above is what I get in the way of hostile communication for my efforts.

She went on to angrily quiz me "the RSVP cards say 2/28 as the response date, I don't know why we're getting all up in arms here". I responded "oh I'm aware of that, no need to panic at this point, not at all, I just wanted to know if you guys were going to go ahead with trying to get some RSVP's back this way, that's all". She assured again, that her mother, who will be dealing with her dh's angioplasty (the g'parents) ............ will be making phone calls, and that they'd let me know.

I didn't ask, but wanted to. What the heck is wrong with HER that once again, something SHE SHOULD BE SEEING ABOUT, is being delegated to someone else to manage, someone else who happens to be her mother, who is going to be dealing with her dh who is having angioplasty. Why in God's name would she put this on her own other to handle, when it's hers to do, but I didn't ask, none of my biz.

But then the crowning blow was yesterday's transpirings. Move out day for my daughter. She and her future dh are to be married end of March. They have rented an apartment to go take up residence in. The future dh is out on the road working, and not in town. So move out day was to be handled by my daughter and family/friends here locally. There were a number of items to be taken from her home here, with us, from her g'mother's home, and from her fiance's home, in a rented moving truck, to the apartment to set up housekeeping, furniture, dishes, etc., etc.

Daughter communicated with future mil first of this past week on the big move out plans, and the moving truck that had been secured for same. Future mil asked at the time, of daughter, if she could use some help. Daughter responded "yes probably". But that was the end of any dialogue on that topic, I suppose they moved on to other conversation. Later in the week, just in passing, it also got mentioned again, in passing, nothing else much said, that the big move out day was to be Sunday. Nothing more was said.

So yesterday came, daughter picked up the moving truck, ............. had her passle of family/friends on hand to begin the big move out. She started here, with the items here to be taken, then headed to her g'mother's home for pick up of items there, to be taken, and all the while attempting to call future mil ........... so they could swing by there for the pickup of items. No answer at future mil's home. No answer on cell, or home, unusual for a Sunday for them. So daughter called fiance' who is out of town on work assignment, "call your mom and see when I can get by there to pick up items from there for moving, I have all these backs to help me today, I have a rented moving truck at my disposal, I need to get by there, and they won't answer the phone". Daughter said to me, that she just knew that she was being avoided, for some odd reason. Fiance did call his mother, and lo and behold reached her <at home>, the precise location where my daughter had tried, numerous times, to reach the future mil, who was obvously now, avoiding my daughter.

Future mil says to her son (the groom) "this isn't a good day". I don't know why, if she specified to her son, I'm not aware. I don't know.

Groom calls my daughter back, and repeats "it's not a good day, mom says". My daughter, now incensed that she is being avoided, .......... and what does she mean this isn't a good day, she knew this day was coming she was told, ......... I have all thse backs available today to help me, I have the rented truck for one day, this isn't a good day??!?!?, what??!?!?. She called the future mil "what do you mean this isn't a good day".

The answer forthcoming from future mil "_____________this is not a good day, you just are not considering my feelings in any of this, ........... you have excluded me, and not taken my feelings at all into consideration in any of this, and I am hurt". My daughter responded "what?, what feelings, what are feelings in relation to moving day?, what are you talking about". The woman responded "well I didn't know you had a rented moving truck, I didn't know that you had all these people to help you, I didn't know today was moving day, you just are not taking my feeling at all into consideration in any of this". My daughter said "I don't understand what you mean, feelings, feelings, what is that?, what feelings are there to have with regard to moving day", daughter wen ton to express that she has the rented moving truck for one day, and the backs to help her, for one day, she really needs to get this done. It turned into a shouting match with the mother insisting that my daughter is excluding her and not taking her feelings into consideration in any of this, and that she is hurt as a result, my daughter yelling back at being yelled at, ......... that there is no *feeling* in this, this is about moving. The mother finally yelled a final at my daughter "I tell you what ________________, I'll put your things outside, you can come get em", and hung up on my daughter.

My daughter soon enough after that rec'd a text on her cell from the woman's dh (the stepdad to the groom) and it merely said "your stuff is outside, you have 5 mins. to come get it" She did so. The stuff was outside on the driveway, and not all of it. No, they never came outside (the future mil, nor the dh of the mother in law) to say hi, boo, kiss my butt, nothing, they stayed inside. They put, outside, onto the driveway, I guess what they thought she was to take, which wasn't all of it (the son's dresser was supposed to go, that had been the prior agreement) but that wasn't out there. Along with some other things that were not there. My daughter and her family/friends picked up what was there, and went on about the moving day.

But what in the world gives with this woman?!?!?!? My daughter SO UPSET about all this. No the woman hasn't since come to her sense and plead insanity and asked forgiveness, daughter says it's not likely she will.

What does the groom have to say about all this? He merely says "why can't everybody just get along", he says "well mom feels left out". He says "I don't wanna be stuck in the middle of this, leave me out of it".

That's about his input on it all.

SIGH

As I started this. I am trying my LEVEL best to keep peace and get through all this without having a scene of some sort, but it is becoming increasingly difficult. I don't know what the woman's problem is. She refuses to be a part of getting on board and participating, but she's quick to throw out the woe with me card, that nobody took her into consideration (see the prior post, about her dealings with me, on the invitation list, and how she is put out with me for not having included her, yet she never volunteered to do a darn thing, and what it was she SHOULD be doing in all of this, she couldn't manage to effectively get done), but yet she an whip out the woe with me card and and play it like a fiddle.

I don't know how I'm going to get thru this without blowing a gasket, big.

HELP.

Oh my, Don't you wish they would have eloped? Sure would have made things much easier. It really sounds as though things have gone from bad to worse and this relationship with your daughter and her soon to be MIL may well be strained from now on.

I recognize you have every right to be upset. Every right and you have tried your best to get along with this woman. However... you have to continue to try. You realize that all this anquish, all these hard feelings, all this money is for just ONE day. One day, yet your daughter and you, are going to be involved in a relationship with this woman for the rest of your life. Somehow, someway you have to get beyond your feelings, grit your teeth and hold out the olive branch. I don't know how you can do it, I've no advice for that but look down the road... how are the two of you going to share the birth of your first grandchild? The kindgergarten graduation? birthday parties? etc.... your relationship with this woman doesn't end after wedding day, it has just began and this is especially true for your daughter.

I know the stress of planning this and especially with no help and the expense of it all would be enough without having to pull teeth from this woman. I truly do understand and sympathize. What about your husband? Maybe the two of you could invite her and her husband out for dinner? Not that you have time for that with everything else going on but somehow allow her to save face in all of this. Her behavior with your daughter, one would think, would be embarrasing for her.

(((Hugs)))

Hi Carol:

And thanks for the response. I do work so hard to try to remember, this is just one day in the future of so so many days that will be otherwise eventful also. The birth of a g'child, like you said, kindergarten graduation, bday parties, you name it. And I have to find a way to zip my lip, which is what I'm doing, biting off the inside of my cheek to do it, but doing just that.

As was said the other night, my daughter sitting at my elbow when the woman took the demeanor she did on the RSVP issue on the phone with me. I said to my daughter, at the end of that contentious conversation (and why does it have to be contentious, what about some grace?, some humility on the woman's part?), I said to my daughter "___________you don't know how hard that was, the way she just acted towards me, when I am only trying to get a simple answer to a simple question, so uncalled for, ........... it was all I could do to not just call her on it, call her on her attitude, and tell her what I think of her woe with me pitty card she plays, and her lack of participation in any of this, and the constant roadblocks she puts up, it was all I could do".

My daughter said "Mom, please don't, no matter how bad it gets, please don't, ........ it will only make it worse, just please, no matter how bad it gets, just don't let her take you there, just keep doing what you're doing, kill her with kindness, please".

I assured my daughter, that for her, I would do just that. No matter how bad it gets, she can count on me to zip it.

Ironic then that the next day, the very next day, my daughter finds herself on the other end of the woman's games, and she herself, didn't take it laying down. She fought with the woman.

How I wish it were a situation that we could sit down at a restaurant somewhere with she and her dh, and just have some friendly conversation. It just simply is not going to happen. We are WAY WAY WAY different people. They aren't the kind of folks that I would *choose* to spend time with, nor I'm sure them with us.

We are "drinkers" (socially). We are not opposed to having a beer, or a glass of wine, periodically. Don't do it often, but when we want to, we do so. They are staunchly opposed to drinking, and have the impression that anyone who drinks, has a problem. So be it, to each their own. But, again ......... not someone I would purposely socialize with. They don't EVER use a swear word. The groom has told us, that he has never heard either his bio mom nor his stepdad use any kind of swear word, ever. Wish I could say the same about my household. But I can't. We do, on occasion, let it fly (not proud of that).

I am more open-minded about things like *pre-marital* sex than they are. That was a whole huge topic over there. I don't think they had any business approaching my daughter on that topic (a whole lecture on the perils of pre-marital sex), but that was my daughter's' battle to wage with them. Not mine. I don't agree with their premise on the topic.

They don't feel the two should move in together into an apartment, not one moment before the vows are said (which are slated to be the end of March). But we see, that daughter moved into her own apartment just the other day, and when her fiance' returns from his stint on the road working, he too, will return to the apartment, for them to co-habitate.

I am just more *open-minded* about things than they are. And that's fine. Everybody has their opinions and morals and value sets.

But it leaves us with little to talk about, his folks and her's. They aren't the type to sit and discuss such things. They are very straight-laced, very one-sided, no room for discussion. Things are very black/white with them, no gray areas. I'm not so much black/white, there are gray areas for me.

I just don't think we will ever be "friends", at all. I do think we will be able to be in the same room and mind our manners, I know I will do so. Have done so. Went to a shower a month ago, with all present and accounted for, including the other mother. The demeanor was "cordial", but not much more.

I just don't think I've ever had to have such important dealings with someone (emotional ties to those dealings also) someone with such lack of any grace, manners, humility. Lack of any ability to exhibit anything in the way of participation. And then to cry the woe with me pitty card, so consistently. I just have never experienced anything like it. Maybe I've lead a sheltered existence.

She just infuriates me.

Every thing she has been asked to do, which has only been the necessities as her part as MOG, she has fouled up or either not done, until it has been a huge ugly issue. And here we are on the precipe of the RSVP issue, and that too is not rolling in, ......... and she wants to take such a difficult, obstinent approach to my question on the topic. What is up with that? Where is the willng/cooperative attitude.

Wouldn't it make much more sense rather than to argue with me about it, to just respond with something akin to "gosh I know how frustrating this has to be for you, I don't know why my side isn't responding but I will get on it, and see what I can get done". And leave it at that.

I'm a reasonable person. I know that she can't literally go and sit down and make folks, in their homes, fill out the RSVP cards, and stick em in the mail. I know that. But a some phone calls, to try to get some things moving in that direction maybe.

That's how things are done. It's not like I have asked of her something that is out of the ordinary/extrodinarily odd to be asking. This is what's done in these things. I even said to her "oh I know the requested return date hasn't even reached us yet, so no need to panic or anything". I even said as much. But ........ still she just wanted to come out of the gate and be hostile, from the start.

Why?

What is she accomplishing other than to make an arse of herself. And .............. 'almost' bring me to the point of being one myself.

Now I am guilty, I did say some nasty things about the woman, (she deserves it, and her actions continue to prove me right, instead of the contrary), I am guilty of having said some nasty things about her and her lack of brain power (wasn't put so politely). And in the presence of her son (however, it was in my home that these things were said). Now, why he chose to carry that back and tell his mother, I will never understand. But that is precisely what he did do. And it has only served to make matters much much worse. But I am not sorry for the things I said about her, I stand by what I said, I think the woman is a complete idiot who likes to play mind-games, and I don't play games.

So, while I think our value sets would've never had us be best of buddies, ............. the fact that she knows the horrible things I said about her (and I did do so, in a moment of complete insanity, in my own home, over her continued boneheadedness), that only served to seal the deal. She loathes the ground I walk on. So be it.

Maybe she should've, somewhere along in all of this, stepped on board to maybe show what a fool I am, and just how readily she can be a participant and willingly so and show me that I'm the idiot over here that doesn't know my way out of a wet paper bag. But she hasn't done so, even still. Things just continue to be strained and awful, and she, at every turn, refuses to get on board, but is oh so quick, to whip out that sympathy card and play it like a fiddle, and as I said, I don't play games. I get stuff done.

Oh well, maybe venting here, will save me from venting to my daughter (she has to have some semblance of respect and the ability to get along in that family) so my mouthing off to her, does not help things.

All I can do is continue to muddle through and try not to be too mouthy.

It's interesting that you can see that because of your differences the two of you are not likely to be friends yet your children find themselves compatible enough to be married. I hope they are. Usually we are more like our parents that we like to admit at that age.

I'm glad you can come here to vent. It does help to get things off our chest and it does sound like you are going above and beyond to get along with her and there isn't much else you can do. At least your daughter is seeing first hand some of the things you have been going through. I imagine she called her fiance and let him know how unreasonable his mom was being as well?

I'm sure in spite of it all the wedding will be beautfiul. Just keep biting your cheek and coming here... We may not be able to offer any real advice but you have our support.

I never have quite understood it. From the day the guy entered my daughter's life (high school sweethearts) he took up, here on the scene, like he was part of the family here. I mean literally. They are both very much homebodies, always have been. They spent A LOT of time here over the past 4 years, a LOT. And that includes him. And even to the degree that he would come over here and hang out, even when daughter wasn't here (at work, school).

For a little more than 3 years, it was like he left his bio family in the dust, for here. And I would do what I could to encourage that they go in the other direction, suspecting that mother over there might be wondering what is the draw here at this household (I still don't know what the draw is for here). But when they'd make motion to go in that direction, 9 times out of 10, the response they'd get from over there was that it "wasn't a good time". They were washing the dog, they were cleaning the carpets, the mother had a migraine, the mother had a hard day, the mother had work to do (brings home work from the office on a laptop). A myriad of excuses over a period of more than 3 years. Rarely, VERY RARELY did they find themselves over there, even though they'd request (as homebodies, they weren't apt to spend time partying with friends really), even though they'd request, periodically, to go in that direction, it would usually be met with a less than warm welcome. He is an only child, other than the step kids that don't live in the home.

That used to so bother me. Only because I wondered if that other mother was hurt that her son had basically all but taken up residence at his g'friend's home, but more so the fact that I would've liked to have had some evenings on my couch over that period of time, with just me and dh, and the little sister that lives here. Seemed like my life was, every night, about the two of them being here. And I couldn't inspite of my best efforts get them to go in the other direction.

So yes, it is an interesting study in the human condition as to why it was he'd find such a comfort level here in this home. When the home he comes from, was way more straight-laced and narrow-minded than what is exhibited here in this household.

He does "drink" socially, like we do. I don't know if his mother is aware of that, I suppose she is. He does "smoke", they do not. He does use swear words on occasion, (over here anyway, I suspect he wouldn't dare in his own home). So, in truth, he is more like all of us. My daughter will drink a beer on occasion, she too smokes, she too uses swear words occasionally, like her bio parents.

Hard to figure how somebody grows up in a home that has no drinking allowed, in fact they are opposed to drinking of any sort. Smoking, etc. And yet, the young man is so staunchly different than that of what raised him.

Yes daughter did let her fiance know how the mother was behaving. The fiance's input on the topic was varied, 1) he doesn't want to get involved, 2) can't everybody just get along, and 3)his mother just feels left out, excluded.

He isn't one to take a stance, with my daughter, or anyone else. He's a "yes man", a they say. That will likely cause them some problems down the road. He will *go along, to get along* to a fault. Rather than take a stand, and yes, even with my daughter. As I've been front row to a lot over the last few years, and there have been times when my daughter has run rough-shod over him, and he just takes it. Not one for confrontation ........... with anyone. So I suspect he is going to have some tough times ahead with a mother who doesn't respect boundaries very well, a very strong-willed daughter in law, and mouthy at times, and a son who refuses to take a stand. That is one characteristic in him that I don't like. But he's my daughter's choice for a mate, and I have to stand down on that issue, and do just that.

I had talked about in a prior post, another incident where the mother's lack of insight, and sensitivity to others had caused a problem. And that a perfect example where the son should have taken a stand with his mother but will never do so.

Over the last 4 years that they have been together, it ......... for some reason ........... with the both of them, was encumbent upon the both of them, to be together, for holidays. One would think, maybe in the early days, that on xmas, t-giving, easter, whatever it is, that one would go one way to satisfy family demands, the other in the other direction for the same purpose. Not so. From day 1, it was almost as if they were married (high school sweethearts, way too committed, but being old souls that they both are, and homebodies, not like they had a whole lot else to interest them). It was their preference from day 1, almost, to do holidays together.

Holiday dinners were always, apparently, to the other mother a big deal, that they both be front and center. To the exclusion of what else might be planned within "her" family. There were numerous times that my daughter was in tears, as she wanted to be with him, .............. but also wanted to be with her family here (family that might have come in from out of town even, on holidays and we'd all gather together, but she'd miss out, because the other mother would INSIST that they be front and center). My daughter spent many a holiday stressed out and in tears, because of his mother's insistence that they be front and center. Ironic when you consider that the other 360 days of the year they'd try to go in that direction and would be met with a brick wall. But let a holiday occasion roll around, and by darn, they better make it happen, and when/how/where, she says. Period.

Of course, my daughter could've chosen, at any point in all of that to send him on his way, and she stay with her family ........... which is what was causing the tears/stress, she wanted to be HERE, not there. But she more often than not would go and do what she didn't want to do, be with is family and be in tears over it. I suppose, so they cold spend whatever holiday it was, together, as opposed to apart from one another.

I know that for the first few years, I stood down, consistently. Inspite of what might have been occuring with "our" family and family dinners, get-togethers. I did without the presence of our daughter, and watched her spend countless holidays stressed out and in tears, over it all. And I stood down. In the interest of not creating even more stress for them, I said ....... always ............. "you guys are welcome here, but if you need to go over in that direction, do what you need to do, don't worry about what's going on here". So as to lessen the demands on their time, presence.

I did that for the first few years.

Until ............ my daughter, approaching a xmas, yet another holiday stress time, thought she'd get it all handled. She went to the woman in advance and asked what the plans were in that direction, so she could plan accordingly with her family that was in town. It was said to her by the other mother that their plans included xmas eve, that they should plan to be front and center for xmas eve. So she did so. They went in that direction, even though what she "wanted" to be doing was to stay in this direction, since all of her family had come in town for xmas, and we were all slated to visit, for xmas eve, the church they will be married in, for xmas eve services. That's what her preference was, but rather than upset the applecart, she went in that direction. The agreement had been that they'd do xmas eve with his family, and xmas day with her family.

They arrive there for xmas eve only to find that the plans had changed. Now they were doing xmas eve AND xmas day, and the two were expected front and center for both. That now meant that my daughter would miss all of the festivities, fun and frivolity with her family, entirely.

My daughter said to the woman, in an attempt to be tactful "gosh ya know holidays are always so stressful for me, I want to be with my family too, but I end up in the road all the time, and running back and forth".

The woman responded "don't wanna hear excuses, make it happen".

After that, I decided I WAS DONE standing down. I was going to dig in my heels and see what happens. I knew that would likely make life rough for the two of them, if both mothers are now diggin in their heels. But I had stood down consistently and I wasn't getting any reciprocation for my efforts. It never seemed to dawn on her to say to them "you guys I know you need to also go in the other direction and be with her family, do what you need to do". Nope.

So this past t-giving, I made it clear to my daughter, that we had several family members going to be in town, and that I expected them front and center at so and so time. She said with disappointment "oh, we are supposed to be at his house at _____________", same time of day. I said "well then we have a problem don't we?". She said "well maybe we can do both, we'll just be a little late getting back here".

I let it lay at that.

But she began to beef to her fiance' about ALWAYS having to be in that direction for holiday meals, ........... ALWAYS. That his mother's refusal to see that there are other family members that might want their presence, his mother was being selfish and rude. She began to make such noises to her fiance'.

Her fiance', being the "yes man" that he is, took a stand of "I don't give a ________, we'll do whatever you wanna do". She said "fine, then we'll stay here and have our t-giivng with my family". He said "we can't do that, we already told my mother we'd be there for t-giving". She said (this, I was front row to the fight), .......... "you just said you didn't care, we'd do whatever I want". He said "well why can't we do both?". She said "that's the problem, we always do both and it ends up I miss whatever goes on in my family because your family can't ever get their act together, we're supposed to eat at 2:00 and turns out we don't eat til 6:00, ............ and all that time is spent over there, helping them prepare, when I could be here with my family, enjoying my family, but I never get to, because your mother insists, everytime, that we be over there".

At that point I jumped in, and said some not nice things to him. I told him that I have stood down and let his mother run over every single holiday since the two of them were together from day one and I was done doing so, that last xmas when she fouled up the whole works with her insistence that they be front and center for both xmas eve and xmas day and caused us to miss the presence of our daughter at any of it, as a result, I made up my mind that I too would dig in my heels, and see how it goes, so ......... you've heard this before, your mothers words "I dont' wanna hear excuses, make it happen ............ well those sounds like good words to me, now I'm digging in my heels this time, I want you guys here, front and center this time, 2:00 p.m. for t-giving, be here, I suggest you deal with your mother accordingly, or you go that way and my daughter will stay this way, which is OBVIOUSLY what she prefers to do, that's just what she is trying to tell you!!!!!!!".

He got huffy with me and said "I dont' care, call her, you tell her". I yelled at him, for the first time ever, "she is not my mother, she is yours and she is being selfish beyond belief in her constant insistence that you guys be front and center for every single holiday to the exclusion of what might be going on in my daughter's life with HER Family and and I AM DONE putting up with it, I have done without the presence of my daughter for the holidays for the last 3 years so your mother could have you guys front and center, and she doesn't wanna hear excuses, well I don't either, this time, ............ she is your mother, not mine, you deal with her. Your mother doesn't give a rat's behind where you guys are the other 360 days of the year, but by God let a holiday roll around and you guys better be there if it hairlips the devil, doesn't occur to her to consider that my daughter has a family too, and that she has had you guys at her table the last 3 years, every holiday and we have done without her, ............ she is making it obvous, has said as much to your mother, and nobody wants to listen, well I am digging in my heels this time, you go deal with your mother".

I yelled that at him.

He left here not too long after that. Didn't say another word to me. But it was pretty apparent, he was not happy with me.

Did he go tell his mother, and the two of them stay this way for t-giving? Nope.

He ended up spending the day with his family, she with her's And you might've thought my daughter sad to be doing a holiday without her fiance'. But nope, she had the best time, and commented several times about how glad she was not to have to be over there, and not to have to spend her day in the road, and stressed out, as she waits for them, to get things done, which they never do until much later. She stayed here, and kept commenting, and laughing and having a great time, about how nice it was. So she was glad to be here. Her fiance', he came over and spent a good deal of the a.m. here, and then went home in time to belly up to the table, and then was back here in no time flat, spent the rest of the day here with daughter and her family in town.

So there, one instance of where perhaps he should've taken a stance with his mother but wouldn't do so.

There have been numerous times.

She is selfish, narcissistic (sp?) and sports quite the "victim" mentality when it suits her. She wants to pick and choose her level of participation in the wedding planning and then cry "hurt" and "foul" when it's not to her liking. You've got your hands full Doaker and I would have killed her by this point but Carol is right - you just go on being gracious, grit your teeth, & sit on your hands so you're not tempted to strangle her.........

Yes, I'm looking forward to hearing how the wedding itself turns out. I was thinking about you last night and thinking that my own parents don't involve themselves with my inlaws very often (they live 4 hours apart so it's not an issue) nor am I involved very much with my son's in-laws as they too live far away. It sounds as though you live in the same town though. That's unfortunate.

I hope all works out well though not just for the wedding but for your peace of mind too and that your memories will be good ones and not tainted with the mess of trying to deal with all of this. It also occured to me that perhaps MOG is going through the woes of peri struggling with the ability to get out of bed let alone help with the wedding.. it could be. It would also explain her less than congenial attitude.

I totally agree!!!

I'm so sorry you're going thru all this drama, Doaker. My daughter is getting married in July. A big wedding of over 200 people. I adore his family, and we've been having so much fun making all the plans, shopping, etc... well.... the money part isn't fun but it's such a JOY to be a part of this. I'm really sorry you can't have a similar experience! Dealing with your in-laws would have ****** the life out of it for me!! I feel your pain!

What is really weighing heavily on me right now, is the lack of RSVP cards rolling in, for their side.

Granted, there is a respond date of 2/28, so no need to get too worried at this point. And I won't. But "our" side, I think I have about 2 or 3 that haven't yet responded, out of the 50 some odd that went out.

"Their side", I think I have 2 or 3 responses, out of the 45 folks. The rest, it's all blank.

Now I tried "approaching" that topic on the phone with the woman the other night, and walked right into a buzz saw.

I am "TRYING" not to have a problem. Going out of my way, to "NOT" have problems. But this is one thing I really do need a definitive answer to, the head-count for that side.

And no, I'm really not comfortable with going on a *verbal okay* from the MOG, not for that many people. A few yes, certainly, but not for that many. That's a LOT of money. I really do need those RSVP's back, or most of them, and they are not rolling in here.

I guess I'm gonna be slammed with return RSVP's over the next week, since it's a 2/28 date. Let's hope so anyway.

But I do find it kind of puzzling that when my daughter initially mentioned to the MOG that we are not getting any RSVP's back from her side, the response she got from MOG was this "Oh well you guys excluded kids, a lot on our side have kids, and so it may be that they can't come". That was said by MOG to my daughter.

Yet, less than week goes by, when the woman calls my daughter to inquire as to names that have not responded. Daughter gives her said names, and each and every one read to her, she responds "Oh I talked to so and so, yes they're coming, oh yes, I saw such and such the other day, they for sure are coming, oh yea, definitely so and so is coming", for each and every name read off that list.

So which is it?

Are there folks that are upset because we excluded kids, and they won't be coming? Or was that just a lie, one more thing for MOG to gripe about that she had no input on.

Has she "truly" talked to, and touched base with each and every name read to her, and found that yes indeed they all are going to come, they just haven't seen fit to find their way to a mailbox with an RSVP card? Which is it.

And unfortunately without the RSVP's rolling in here, that's gonna put me back at square one, with seeking some answers, and likely, on the other end of her wrath, for doing so.

I guess I'll hear again, "well I told _____________<bride> that I've talked to each and every one and they all do intend to come, DO YOU HAVE TO HAVE AN RSVP CARD FOR EVERY SINGLE LAST ONE OF THEM, OR THEY CAN'T COME?!?!?!?!?". As was said to me in the other night's phone conversation.

And yes, I did try to explain to the woman that this, at the head-count presently, that hasn't responded (and no I haven't rec'd a single one, since that phone conversation), I did try to explain to the woman that we are talking over $600 at this point to accomodate the number on her side that have not responded, that I am not comfortable with forking over that kind of money, on a mere verbal, from her, that I really do need the RSVP's back this way. That's when she blasted me "DO YOU NEED AN RSVP CARD FOR EVERY LAST SINGLE ONE ON THAT LIST OR THEY CAN'T COME?!?!??!?!".

I even tried to calmly, rationally, at that point, explain to her that no, I am a reasonable person, I know that folks are going to get busy, distracted, and some will loose their RSVP card and not send it back,it happens, I'm prepared for that. But not the large majority of what they have as a list here, almost no one from her side has responded, only about a total of 3 responses. That's it.

Anyway, so now I'm living with kind of a dread, that the 2/28 date is approaching, and hoping hoping hoping, that a phone call isn't necessary because suddenly I will be inundated with RSVP cards from that side, and all will be fine. But dreading it, that may not be the case, and I'll find myself having to discuss the issue again, and then getting called on the carpet for my insistence, that a verbal okay is not sufficient, that I must have RSVP's.

I just don't know what to do. What? Spend the, it comes to $660 for the caterer along, not to mention the person who is doing tables/chairs, chair covers, sashes, place settings, etc., her fee is a grouping sort thing. If it's 50 people, it's one price, if it's 75, it's another price, if it's 100, it's another price, if it's 125 it's another. So I am paying that woman based on a total head count, at this point of just over 100. But if I know that her side isn't going to come, that should be reduced a little.

I dunno. Hopefully I'm worrying for nothing, hopefully the cards will begin to roll in here with a vengeance and a phone call won't be called for.

I'm being mean about this, but here's what: 2/28 comes & goes. That's the number I give to the caterer and whoever else needs the head count. What's the absolute last day you have until they need the head count? If it's say, March 3, then that what would be the number I give to them - - the number who have responded by that date. I would let MOG know this and that she is responsible for getting her peeps to RSVP IN WRITING! No exceptions.

See, this is already setting the ground rules for your future relationship with this woman. You stand firm on this one and let her know that you'll take no nonsense and then perhaps she'll think twice in the future before thwarting you or pulling one of her antics.

All that being said, I'd love to come to the wedding......and you'll have my RSVP by 2/28. Actually, I'd just like to be a fly on the wall.

Okay folks. What do I do now, to avoid a problem.

I got back a couple of RSVP's today on that side.

But one of them, had been sent to a "couple". The man and the woman. I purposely did not include "and family", on any of the invitations, that was the bride's decision. She does not want children there. My input on the topic was that I don't want the added expense. So we opted to "not include" children, and made that known.

In fact, it was a week or so ago, that the MOG said as much "well you guys excluded kids, so it may be that they just aren't gonna come, since kids can't come".

But I get back the RSVP from this person that was sent an invitation for (2) people. And it say son the RSVP card "5", .......... "2 adults, 3 children".

I have already zipped my lip and said not a word about the fact that the MOG intends to bring her g'son (a 2 yo). I did not include him in the invitation, on purpose, as I said it was a decision that was made here on this end. But rather than make waves, I let that lay.

Now I get the RSVP back on this other couple, and they have gone and included their 3 children. The invitation was NOT addressed to "...........and family".

Doaker,
I've followed your hellish saga here and feel bad that you are under such stress. I've always been said I've never had daughters, only sons, but when I see this kind of stuff, I guess there is an upside to it

But I have to respond about the person who sent back the RSVP with the children on it.

IMO, she (the person who sent back the RSVP) needs to be tactfully and kindly told that while you understand why they would want to bring kids, nevertheless, it would not be fair to others there who also had children that did not bring them because they understood it was adults only. I really think it could cause hard feelings with others who had to find a sitter for there kids even though they may have wanted to bring them. I know if it were me and I had paid for a sitter and had wanted to bring my kids, I would be quite irritated to see other kids there.

It's very possible that person just did not understand how it works. On your invitation did it specifically state "Adults only" or something else that would make it clear no children were allowed? Because I've received invitations like that so that I wasn't in doubt about it.

geez, I really hate that we cannot edit. I can't believe how many spelling errors I made. I'm really not as stupid as the typos would indicate

Wondering about that too.....did invites specifically exclude children? Last wedding I was at this summer did say "Adults Only" wedding reception.

No. That wording wasn't utilized. It's my understanding that the inside envelope includes the names of that party that you are inviting.

In other words, on the outside envelope the one that the postal services uses, it says "Mr. and Mrs. John Smith".

The inside envelope then is addressed to "John and Sara Smith".

If you wish to incude John and Sara Smith's children, that is where you address that issue. And you include inside on the inside envelope "John and Sara Smith and Johnny and Suzie". That lets the party know that their kids are included.

So that's what I did do. Addressed the evelopes accordingly.

Even the woman's handwritten list that she gave me just has the couple, it doesn't list the kids of that specific couple. It allowed for two folks, that's it. The couple. And so the envelope was addressed accordingly. Excluding the kids.

Here is how the groom wants to work this situation. He says that their preliminary head count, at this point, is going to come nowhere near the total they were allowed, ............ it will be shy about 10/12/13 people, something like that. That there are several who will not be coming, from their side, so can the kids now be included for that couple.

I said to the groom "but you then run the risk that there will be hurt feelings, because John and Sara Smith would've brough their kids had they known kids were allowed". He said "well I don't know of anybody else on our list that has kids". I said "really?, as recent as a week and a half ago when my daughter was talking to your mom on the topic of lack of RSVP's from your side, she said that it could be because a lot of them have kids, and can't come,because we excluded kids".

He said "well I don't know what she's talking about".

I said to the groom "do you see why it is so crucial that I have an open line of communication with your mom on all this, and your mom wants to be stubborn and ornery, I am trying to put a wedding together, this isn't about me, it isn't about your mom, this is about putting together a wedding that can be memorable and enjoyable for you and my daughter, but your mom wants to stand in opposition to everything I try to do".

He said "I know and I aplogize for that, ............ but I think a good solution would be that sense we don't have everybody on our list coming, ............. not everybody is gonna come, then that makes room for a few more heads".

I said "but as I said, that runs the risk that you now are upsetting John Q Smith, and his wife, because they'd of brought their kids, and not paid for a sitter hd they known".

The groom said of that "well hell, who else has kids, tell em to bring em, I don't care". I said "that isn't what the bride wanted". He said "well this is my wedding to, I just want this to all be over with, all the stress of it". I said "oh me too, believe me, I don't have the luxury of just saying *oh well*, I have to get this worked out, and with one hand tied behind my back as your mom creates as many obstacles as she can along the way".

I said "Look I even told my brother that he can't bring his kids, .......... he's okay with it, he understands, when he got married, my kids were not invited, so he knows full well what this is all about, he was alright with it, but there's a chance he might get there, find kids in attendance, and have his feelings hurt".

He said "well not all of ours are coming, so tell your brother to bring his kids then".

I said "but that isn't what the bride wanted, she didn't want kids running around everywhere".

He said "well all i can say is that I just don't see it as that big a problem, ........... hell, whoever has kids, bring em, who cares, doesn't matter to me, ............ and we aren't going to have nearly the list we invited, to show up, that leaves room for some more heads to show up, .......... so that's more reason there to include the kids".

I said "well is your mom going to call me?". He said that yes, his mom was going to call me this evening.

In the meantime I talked to the planner person for this wedding, she is aware of the obstacles I've faced in dealing with the MOG. She said "well typically what you would do in this case is go to the MOG since it's her side of the family and have her handle it, ........... but since she isn't somebody you can really communicate with, I would just go ahead and drop a nice little note in the mail, and thank them for responding, and thank them for the fact that they are coming to celebrate the wedding, and that you look forward to seeing them there, and that you respectfully request, since the bride and groom made this decision, that they find other arrangements for their children".

So I haven't decided at this point what to do.

OMG... I can't even BELIEVE you are dealing with this!! My gosh... I hope this isn't a sign of what's to come!! HOLY MOLY!! This is like a bad Lifetime movie!!

You are right about the invites... the Mr. & Mrs. on the outside, the names of who are invited on the inner one. WHO doesn't know that??? I also agree with the planner. The problem is the MOG's. SHE needs to handle it.

I noticed that SIL didn't mention the COST of these EXTRA people??? Sheesh!!!

So sorry Doaker...

Okay. Wow. Went to blows tonight, in a big way. With daughter's future mil.

Here is how I decided to handle the issue with the kids who were not included in the invitation. Here is what I decided to do. The groom stated to me, that it's looking like they won't have about 7 or 8 or 9 on their list coming, at all, and so, if that's the case, can the kids be included.

I told him "well yes, I suppose, except that we've made it plain that there may indeed be some folks with kids, and they were smart enough to realize the invitation was not addressed to their kids, and thusly, will make arrangements for their kids only to then come and find kids there, that might present a problem, this is why I consulted with you and my daughter from the outset, are we going to include kids or aren't we, and you both agreed at the time, no kids.

Now, if we're gonna now include kids, then I guess we need to drop back and rethink some things.

So, the way I left it with him, was that I do need a return phone call from his mother just to be sure we are all on the same page, the only way I could see to go forth from here, and I told him so, and told him that I need his mother to return my phone call so I can bring her up to speed also. I said, we can go ahead and tentatively allow for those kids to come, but on the premise that they will have about 7 or 8 or 9 that aren't coming, and that yes, that does allow room for some others, I wish they'd allow for other *adults* in that place, since that is what you guys chose, from the outset, no kids, .............. but as long as we're going to be certain that 7 or 8 or 9 will not be coming from your side, then yes, we'll do that, we'll include the kids, and try to accomodate for same, but they need to be aware, that if we come up at the 9th hour and all have responded from your side that they are indeed coming, then we are going to be over capacity, and at the last minute there may be need for some folks to secure a sitter to care for the kids, I hate to do things that way. But these things take planning, that's why I consulted with you guys from the outset and you both agreed no kids. I consulted with your mother way way way back when, and she said 45 at the most, for her guest list. Now, I planned accordingly, I contracted a caterer, based on a head-count, I contracted a venue, based on a head-count.

But we'll go from here, and work towards trying to accomodate those kids, but I do need to speak to your mom, just to make sure we're all on the same page here.

He assured, that his mother would call me.

Well she did.

She wanted to have an attitude with me, once again. She said "why am I having to rehash all this, I already talked to my son about all this earlier today, why am I having to rehash all this". I said "well I just want to be sure we're all on the same page and understand all aspects here". She said "well I don't understand, don't we have until the 28th to get all the head count together, for sure?". I said "yes indeed we certainly do, but I just want to make sure that everybody knows that I will do what I can to acomodate those kids, inspite of the fact that those kids were not invited, I will do what I can, based on the premise that, like you say, you have 7 or 8 or 9 that are not coming from your side, but if we come up at the 9th hour and indeed all yours are coming for some odd reason, then that 3, with the other kids will put us over, I just wanted to be sure that we're all on the same page".

She said "well I don't understand why it's a problem at this point, we have until the 28th". I said "I am trying to make you aware, as soon as I know, ....... that it may be an issue, just so you can know too, it may not be, but it might, and I didn't want to come to you at the 9th hour when these folks have their travel arrangements and then say to you, no they can't come, I wanted you to be aware of my thinking on it".

She said "I've already talked to my son about all this and I don't know why I'm having to rehash it all with you".

I hesitated a moment and then asked her "Is there a problem, ya know the other night when I tried to talk to you about the RSVP's you wanted to be hostile and angry with me, and now t'nite you are wanting to have a problem over a mere issue I'm trying to address, is there a problem, can we just handle this and move on".

She said "yes, there is a big problem, a huge problem".

She went on to tell me that she hadn't been included in any of this, and that nobody had sought her opinion on anything, even though she had offered to pay for invitations/postage, and nobody seemed to care. I said "did you pick up the phone and call me with that offer?". She yelled "I shouldn't have to, you didn't ask". I didn't know to ask, she hadn't offered.

She then went on to tell me that I have scared the kids to death, with my power hungry control over everything. That for the longest the kids were scared to death that we weren't going to pay for the wedding. I said to her "I never said that I wasn't going to pay for the wedding, did you pick up the phone and call me with that as a concern". She said "I shouldn't have to".

That comment stems from, yes, (I was reminded by my daughter) in January of 08 her fiance' had left yet another job, he has had about 14 jobs. I had expressed at the outset that I was not going to pay for a wedding for the two of them, unless he could demonstrate the ability to keep a job. And so in Jan of 08 he lost a job (he says laid off, our friend that works at the company says no, not laid off, that he was let go because he was inept). But anyway, yes, at that point, I did express some reservations, as I'd stated before "unless the guy can demonstrate the ability to earn a living, i will not put one dime of money behind a wedding", and in January of 08 before this thing even got off the ground with regard to planning stages, I did say that, as a backup to what I had claimed before, he has lost his job, and now I will not pay for a wedding. he has since gone on to another job, and held that one, and then onto another one since that one, and held that one.

She said that I have run rough-shod over her son and not allowed him any input into this wedding. I said "I don't know where that's coming from, there has not been one decision made in any of this, that both were not consulted on, not one".

But all of this was being said yelling, she at me, and me at her.

She said "I have jumped thru every hoop that those kids have put in front of me, so I don't know where you get off telling me that I haven't been a participant". I said "I am not telling you that, I am pointing out to you that you like to come in at the 9th hour and claim woe with me, that doesn't fly with me, did you ever pick up the phone and call me, to express any concerns, to express a desire to help, no - you did not, but you are quick to claim woe with me, that doesn't fly over here, I have to get stuff done".

She said "well I don't know why I'm having to talk to you about ANY OF THIS".

I said "BECAUSE I AM THE MOTHER OF THE BRIDE HERE, I AM TRYING TO PLAN A WEDDING, I tell you what from here forward, I will not bother you, I will consult with the bride and groom and the decision that are made, will not include your input, how's that work for ya". She said (yelling) "WHAT ELSE IS THERE TO DO?!?!?!". I said "oh I can't think of anything at this very moment, but all along the way there have been decisions that have to be made, almost every day, and I've handled em, with the bride and groom's consultation, and I'll do just that, I was making an effort to include you, since you seem to beef that you were left out, but I see where tryin to include you gets me, so I'll just go forward from here, and make the necessary deicisons without your input".

She said "I have done everything that has been asked of me". I said "yea like the guest list that i had to purely show my arse to get and when I did get it it was double what you indicated it had been". She said "well I didn't know that you don't send invitations to folks that aren't coming, I told you all those extra people wouldn't be coming, ................. ".

I said "yes, but you don't put inivitations in someone's hands that may come, not when you aren't the one footing the bill for all of this". She said "well I didn't know that, I thought you could send invitations, to everyone, even though you know they won't come, but they set me straight on that, I didn't know that, I've never done this before, I didn't understand why it was such a big deal". I said "did you open a book on wedding etiquette to find out?". She said "I don't care what a stupid etiquette book says". I said "well that's apparent, I don't have that luxury, I have to try to do things the way they're supposed to be done, you don't put an invitation in the hands of someone that you "think" won't come, they just might, you had preliminarily told me a head count of 45, and that was back in July when I initially asked for the headcount, for a list, and I didn't get that list until November, when I purely showed my arse to get it, ............. and then it was double what you'd voiced as your head count, so yes, I said at the time, that I'd just go put the stuff in your driveway and you can figure out how to plan a wedding with one hand tied behind your back as to how to plan it". <because she said that I'd made that ugly comment, and I did, that I will just put the planning papers, the whole file box in her driveway and she can have at it>, so I explained the above as to why I'd said that ugly comment, because I did say that.

She took exception that I "mailed" her's and her mother's invitations, like they are just some nobodies. That their invitations should've been hand carried and not gone thru the postal service. I said to her "If you'd like I can make sure you have some extras on hand, we have plenty, if it's a problem that it was postmarked, then I have several,I can give you some that are not post marked". She said "that's beside the point".

I ended up hanging up on her, because she said she was gonna hang up on me, for talking to her like she's an idiot, that she is not gonna hang on the phone and have me talk to her like she's an idiot.

She said that, and then commented that I had said some "horrible" things about her, in her son's prsence in my home (which I did do), and she went on to say about that "I don't even talk like that, I have never talked that way about you, .............. and for you to say that about me". I said to her "and you've really proved me wrong about what I said haven't you".

She said "all I've' ever done is love and respect your daughter, and try to do the best I can here". I said "yea like the 3 years that they'd try to go in that direction, and you guys had floors to clean, or a dog to wash, or any number of excuses, right".

And with that I hung up on her.

I am so done with that b*&ch.

So done.

Oh, I'm sorry. I hate this for you. I know the planning of a wedding is a lot of stress and like the MOG, I'm not up on all the etiquette of the planning but... I know 33 years ago when I first started planning my wedding. It lasted all of about two weeks... I then canceled the big outdoor wedding with parasols that I had dreamed of, tossed out the idea of a long white gown and verbally called my family and told them when future DH & I would be at the church and they were welcome to come if they wanted. I told my DH I would rather get a divorce now than go through the planning of such an event. I bought a short dress that I could wear anywhere, told my SIL who was to be my bridesmaid to wear whatever she wanted and walked down the aisle with my Dad and we had a wonderful ceremony. Celebrated with a few sandwiches and chips and a Betty Crocker's cake afterwards. I would not have survived all that you are going through and I just can't see how this will be a happy day with so many hard feelings between the families. I am going to say a little prayer for you because I think it may be your only hope.

One thing you have said really concerns me... her fiance' had left yet another job, he has had about 14 jobs.... Does your daughter know what she's getting herself in for? Can a man who can't commit to a job, commit to a woman? She's been with him for 3 years so one would assume she knows him but is she prepared to work to keep him?

One thing you have said really concerns me... her fiance' had left yet another job, he has had about 14 jobs.... Does your daughter know what she's getting herself in for? Can a man who can't commit to a job, commit to a woman? She's been with him for 3 years so one would assume she knows him but is she prepared to work to keep him?
[/quote]


This is why there had been the assertion on her dad's and my behalf from the outset of their engagement that we were not going to put a dime behind any wedding plans until the guy could demonstrate some ability to sustain employment. The guy had, at that point had about 12 different jobs.

What are my daughter's thoughts on that topic. What are his? We've discussed it with both of them. He assures that yes he has demonstrated some lack of maturity in the realm of keeping a job, as he struggled to find his niche for employment, but that now, he has found it, and there won't be any further concerns. But that was said when we helped him get a job in the "construction trades" field with a buddy we know. He *claimed* at that point to have found his niche. Only to have been let go. He "says" he was *laid off* lack of work. Our buddy at the construction company says that no, there was plenty of work, it's just that construction is not his forte, he was just inept.

Fine and good, not everybody can do such work, I know I sure couldn't.

He then went on to find employment (at this point job #13) at a large big-box home improvement retailer. "Said" he had found his home, he loved it, that he was going to work hard and go into management training, he had found it, his liking. We started in earnest, planning a wedding.

Only for him to, about 6 mos. ago announce, (no consultation with us on the topic) that he was leaving the big-box home improvement retailer, to go into trucking. Going to trucking school. So he quit his job at the big-box, home improvement retailer, and went to school for a period of about a month, and has been on the road *in training* ever since. And "claims" he has found his home, his niche.

Wedding in full swing of plans at that point.

My daughter's take on the above. "Mom I don't see him thru rose-colored glasses, I see the concerns you guys express, but I do love him, and your generation is different than ours, so he has struggled to find what he wants for employment, he'll find it, maybe this is it, trucking ............ maybe this is it for him, and if it isn't, we'll work together towards that end, we just want to be married".

I had encouraged at least initially that the two live together, until we can be assured that the guy can hold a job in some field, some specific field. I mean go to welding school, go to college and be an accountant, an xray tech, I don't care, go learn to be a garbage hauler, just do something, that is a specific field that you can excel at it. But no, his family would have NONE OF THAT. That would be "living in sin", if they were committed enough to each other that they want to co-habitate then they can go on and make it legal.

I said of that, to both of them, at the time "but you guys your dad and I have some real concerns that you are not going to be able to sustain employment, I mean you are now on job #14, you will soon wear out your options, if nothing else there will be nowhere else to go for employment, what are you going to do to earn a living?".

Again, I was told by him, "well I have found it now". I said "I've heard that before, about the other 13 jobs you've had". He said "well I know that I exhibited some lack of maturity with regard to employment, but that was when I was young and stupid, I've got it now, I understand that I have to do something to earn a living, and I'm doing that".

My daughter's take was "mom your generation is different than ours, we like to try different things, stick our toes into the waters of different opportunities to try and find what it is we like, your generation, you guys stayed with the same company doing the same thing for 30/40 years, not our generation, we try our hand at different things". She went on to say "I may be at 14 different shops before it's all said and done". (she is a hairdresser), "I said, but the difference is this, you are plying your trade, you found a vocation and you are working that goal, you aren't flopping from job to job". She said "mom guys mature less rapidly than girls do, maybe he was immature, like he said, but we'll work through this, if he jumps from job to job to job, that's for us to deal with not you guys".

I said "but you expect me to put thousands of dollars behind a wedding for you guys?". Her answer to that was "well we want to be married, if you want us to have any kind of a wedding, you guys have to be the ones to do so, we don't have it, ............. we can go to the court house, we don't care"

Like I said, I tried and tried, as did her dad, to get them to just cohabitate, live together, until we can see whether this is gonna be an issue. But nope, he wouldn't disappoint his family with a living arrangement that to them, is tanamount to "living in sin". So...........................

Here we are, that's where we are today.

I had a choice, way back. I could stand toe to toe, which I did do for a long while, ............... and dig in my heels and refuse to be a part of any wedding, whatsoever, as the guy struggles to figure out what he wants to do with his employment life. Or I could get on board, having had the dialogue/discussions we've had, and do what I "should/could" do for my daughter. This is the guy she wants to marry, inspite of the perils that have been openly discussed with both of them, and so I chose to get on board and move forward with trying to put together a wedding for the two of them.

Doaker: Wow.

I just read this entire thread from beginning to end, and already I feel dizzy.

I feel your pain. Here is my take on the whole thing:

His family: there is something going on there that you don't know about. I can just feel it. Some dysfunction, some secret, some issue, there is something. None of what you have had to put up with has anything to do with YOU personally. His mother is someone with limited social skills. She doesn't understand etiquette, or what is considered civil behavior. Maybe she's being abused, I don't know. The whole thing about judging people who drink socially...it speaks volumes about their character. When you are happy with yourself and your own life, you don't waste time judging other people. These folks do--it's a direct reflection of their own inner feelings. I'll be they are miserable. Poor health perhaps...no communication...boatloads of tension. You couldn't pay me enough to live in their house. No wonder the kids never wanted to be there. "Home" doesn't sounds like it's a happy, warm, comfortable, or safe place to be for your future SIL. Which brings me to my second point.

It shouldn't be a surprise to you that this poor young man is struggling so much to find his place in the world...just look at who raised him. They're both nutjobs; emotionally inept, and the mother? Tell her to look up the phrase "passive aggressive personality" and she will find herself staring at her own picture.

Is he a good person? I mean a really, really good person? Does he have a good heart; is he basically someone that you are okay seeing your daughter married to for the rest of her life? If the answer is yes, then I say, let them get married, forget all the details and missteps and stuff that shouldn't have been done, and things that were done that were wrong. Focus instead on your daughter and her new husband.

He desparately needs guidance, wisdom, and compassion. None of which it sounds like he got as his house. Maybe you should sit down with him and discuss his future. What is he GOOD at? If he wasn't any good at construction, that's okay, but everyone has a special talent. What is his? Did he have hobbies as a boy? Belong to any clubs in high school? Does he like to take pictures, or work with his hands, or cook? Does he read, or write, or enjoy working with numbers? It may take some digging, but I'm sure the nugget of talent is there somewhere, deep insde of him. Your daughter is committed to him, and if your mommy intuition tells you he is a basically a good guy who has just lost him way, then I say, get 'em married...in some form or another (and yes, you'll probably have to grit your teeth and put up with a bunch of stuff that makes you crazy. I would highly recommend you take a tranquilizer before the receiption! ).

Once they are married, then do all you can to support their union. And forget about the parents. They're silly, unhappy people who are wasting your precious time.

Now...that being said, let me move over to THE DARK SIDE. If, in your heart of hearts, you think this guy is a loser...devoid of morals, no character, lazy, selfish, whatever, well, then, let me tell you what I would do. (Keep in mind I'm a strong willed, aggressive little Italian woman who isn't afraid of a fight--ever.)

I would tell my daughter in no uncertain terms that I don't support the marriage. I would try, no matter how long it took-- to get her to postpone the wedding. I would use every trick, manipulation, and argument I could. I know that's not sounding like what a 'good person' would do, but when it comes to my daughter, all bets are off. I would like, cheat, or steal to protect her. I'm not impressed with this young man's response to the situation. He is showing no gumption, no interest...he doesn't seem to be concerned with your daughter's wishes. THAT made my ears perk up.

You can a lot about a person from the way they act in stressful situations. Just how important is it to your daughter that no children be at the wedding? (BTW, I admire her for this...I personally think children can absolutely ruin weddings, and I love children.)

Let go of the head count stuff...if you have to pay extra, so be it. Just my opinion. The reception is just a blip in time..one day, one meal. I am more concerned with how this young man is going to support my child. 14 jobs? Are you kidding me? And this "we're different than YOUR generation" crap that your daughter is dishing out to you...where did she get THAT idea? From him? She has been living with you all these years...she is a baby..has no idea how hard life is going to get if she ends up pregnant, and has husband that can't keep a job.

Hmm..doaker, I don't envy the position you are in. But I would definitlely be focused on your daughter, and let this ridiculous woman just GO. Pants suit at a formal evening wedding? Okaaaay.

Continue to keep us posted, and by the way, I want to come to the wedding too. I"ll pay ( ) for myself!!!
'

Thanks guys, I appreciate the ability all of you have at some insight into all this. It is a terribly frustrating experience.

Let me tell you with regard to this young man. He is a good, kind hearted, respectful, respectful looking young man. He treats my daughter very well, or always has in the past. I have no concern that he will mistreat her.

I do have some concern at his lack of kahunas if you will. I think there have been numerous situations through the years, where he should've exhibited some ability to demonstrate a spine, and that includes MY DAUGHTER, she has run rough-shod over him a few times. But most especially with his mother. He will duck and run, everytime, it can be counted on.

Thus yesterday's problem. They both agreed at the outset of this, that they didn't want children attending, children are a distraction, they can create havoc, they both agreed at the outset, no children. Ahhhh, but now, now that we've had some bonehead on their side of the family include 3 children, that WERE NOT INCLUDED On the invitation, rather than grow some spine and go to his mom "hey ma, we have a problem so and so included their children in this thing, we specifically excluded children, do I need to call em or do you want to". That would be exhibiting some "spine", some "Kahunas". He lacks both.

What was my daughter's take. She has seen enough contention that she herself, at this point is ready to bend over b'wards, remember she loves this guy, that is his mother, ............. do we really want to hurt him, isn't there something we can do to placate in this situation so as to NOT HAVE YET ONE MORE PROBLEM. That's kind of her take on it.

So I did the only thing I knew to do, if indeed they are going to have an absence of about 8 or 9 on their guest list, then I guess, yes, (technically I shouldn't do so, I should stand firm, that was the decision the bride and groom made, and the fact that folks on his side are two boneheaded to know how this all works, is not on me to acccomodate), but I did the only thing I knew to do, at the groom's insistence "well we have about 9 that aren't going to show, can't the kids fill some of that slot, do we really need to make a problem of this?".

What do you say to that?

You try to be gracious, pliable, do what you can to work within the confines you have to work with.

So I agreed, but on the premise that indeed their guest list comes up 9 short, or some semblance thereof, ............. thereby allowing space for those kids, WHO WERE NOT INVITED.

I tried to do what I can to accomodate.

But then with the mother, when I tried to outline the premise of my thoughts on the topic, she said to me "why am I having to discuss this with you again, I already talked to my son about this earlier today, why do I have to rehash all this".

I said to her "well I thought it might be encumbent upon me to maybe bring you up to speed on my thoughts on it, Look, ............ I will do what I can to accomodate those kids that want to be a part of this, even though both the bride and groom voiced at the outset that they didn't want kids part of it, I will do what I can, but you need to be aware that if space is a problem, and we have all of your responses back, we simply will not have the room for those 3 kids, we are already bumping into capacity on the bldg, as it is, and so as such, it might be necessary to explain to the party that wishes to bring their children that they may wish to have a contingency plan for the care of their kids, I don't know if you want to secure the services of a sitter for just in case".

She interrupted me "No I'm not doing that, no ............... I don't see why this has to be a problem, I told you we have about 9 that are not coming, can't those kids fill that slot". I said "yes they most certainly can, that's what I just said, based on the premise that you have several that will not be coming, but IF ............. they do end up RSVP'ing that they are coming, there needs to be a contingency plan for the care of those kids, who were not invited".

She then said "why am I having to talk to you about all this, I already discussed all this with my son, ................ why am I having to rehash all this with you, ........... I tell you what, you just go on and call all my family, send em letters do whatever you want, you tell em just what you want em to do okay".

At that, I asked "is there a problem, something you'd like to get off your chest, ya know the other night I tried to discuss RSVP's with you and was met with hostility, t'nite, I'm trying to do what I can to accomodate a situation that I AM BY THE WAY under no obligation to accomodate, ........ and again, hostility, is there something you'd like to get off your chest".

And the rest, is history. It went south from there.

Okay, so your daughter is the alpha dog. If they're happy with this, then so be it. But she may run into situations later in life where his lack of will power is going to be a big problem. Problem #1: Keeping the MIL out of their lives. I'm telling you, doaker, there is more to this than meets the eye. This family just sounds weird.

So your daughter is okay with a couple bringing not 1, not 2 but 3 kids to their wedding? If she's good with that, then what can I say. You have to go along with it. Personally, I'd be livid...and tempted to call the couple myself and tell them politely that children are not invited to the wedding.

I guess starting over and offering the olive branch isn't an option? Because it did cross my mind...you could take the higher ground, be the bigger person...show up her door with a big basket of fruit or flowers or something that won't offend them, and ask to call a truce and start over? It might melt her heart. And if it backfired, you would at least know that you tried.

LOL. There is NOTHING that I can do at this juncture, right/wrong or indifferent that will melt the woman's heart with regard to me. I am an ogre from haides as far as she is concerned.

Look, I am guilty of having said something pretty ugly about her, and her lack of brain-power and in front of her son. Her son, witness to same, carried that information back to her (I know real mature on his part). He had no business doing so. What is said in this household, I don't care who it's about, should not be shared. But that's beside the point, the gate has been kicked wipe open on that issue.

So with the woman now knowledgeable about the hateful remarks I said about her, and I did do so, I could hang the moon for her, and she'd spit on it.

She has no use for me.

Now you have to understand the premise of why I said the specific remarks I did. I had asked the woman for the pictures, for the montage we intended to do. They never came forth. I gave up on it, budget constraints being one issue there, but also not wanting to wage war over the issue. Also, I had asked her to help/assist to get her stepdaughter on board with getting a bridemaid dress, it never happened. She and the stepdaughter do not get along. To get those two in a car together towards a dress shop, was simply not going to happen. She was not willing to give the stepdaughter her cc and send her along on her merry way to secure said dress, as she expressed stepdaughter has misused same in the past. My daughter offered to step up and take the cc, and/or a check, and go to the dress shop with stepdaughter in attempt to make this happen. The answer from the woman was "oh no, she can get on board with me, and we can work together to get this done, or it simply won't happen". The stepdaughter never did do so, and the future mil gave up. So there's one more arena where the mother in law failed to produce what had been asked of her. I asked her in July of this past year for a head count and an attempt at some kind of cursory list, as I moved forward in the planning of this thing. It wasn't forthcoming. I asked again in September, still, it didn't produce. I asked again in October, this time with more of an urgency and with a deadline of sorts. It still didn't come forth. I finally showed my arse, and said some nasty hateful things with regard to his mother, and in his presence, when the list produced, end of November, because I showed my arse to get it, and it showed up here, double what the original verbal head count had been. That is when I blew a gasket, and said some specific hateful remarks.

Am I sorry? No, I'm not. The woman continues to show her true colors. Look, just this past weekend, my daughter moving out into her first apartment ever, ......... she hasnt' done a thing wrong to the woman. The understanding had been that there were numerous items to be picked up from numerous households, all via a rented moving truck for the day, and friends/family and their strong backs to assist. All whose households were involved were made aware, Sunday was moving day. On Sunday, my daughter made numerous attempts to contact his mother (fiance is out of town) and was unable to reach her. She had a rented moving truck for the day only, and a bunch of friends, and their strong backs for that day only. She finally called her fiance' and implored him to see if he could reach his mother, so she could get by there to pick up the things from that household. The fiance' found his mother at home, the very place my daughter had tried, numerous times, to reach her. The answer the fiance gave my daughter was that his mother says "this isn't a good day, this just isn't a good day, she hasn't taken my feelings into consideration in any of this, and I am hurt, so no, she cannot come by here today".

My daughter has done nothing to the woman. Now maybe she loathes the ground I walk on and for cause, I said some hateful things about her, that she is aware of. But my daughter hasn't done a thing to her. No, I don't know what the woman was referring to that my daughter hasn't taken her feelings at all into consideration in any of this. I don't know what that was about, my daughter doesn't either. My daughter called her, and confronted, "what do you mean this isn't a good day, you knew this was moving day, you knew I had a rented moving truck for the day and the assistance of friends and family, what do you mean, this isn't a good day and that I haven't considered your feelings in any of this, what feelings are there to moving, what?". The woman said to my daughter "you have just not considered me in any of this, you haven't taken my feelings into account in any of this, and I am hurt, and I just cannot have it, I am not prepared for a moving truck here today, and so no you cannot come by here". My daughter said to her "but I have this truck for the day only, and the backs to help me", they went round and round and round, .............. with the woman insisting that my daughter just hasn't considered her feelings at all, in any of this. My daughter trying to understand what *feelings* what *feelings* are there to moving, what is she refering to, to which the mother would only answer that she is crushed, that she is hurt, that she has been excluded all along and she is hurt. My daughter kept at it, the two yelling at one another, until the woman said to her "Ok, I tell you what _______________you come on by here, and I'll put your stuff outside". She rec'd a text shortly after that from the stepfather in that household, read "your stuff is outside and you have 5 mins. to come get it".

My daughter, since that time (she did go by and pick up what had been left outside for her, which btw, was not all that she was supposed to have retrieved from that household, but she didn't dare ask, she just picked up what was left outside for her, and on she went). My daughter, being a bigger person than myself, has tried to extend an olive branch for what infraction she doesn't know, but in the interest of making peace and for the guy she loves, who happens to be the son of this woman she has tried to extend an olive branch and offer to sit down and have a chat over some things. The woman didn't even respond to that message, but instead passed along thru her son, that she is not ready to sit down and talk to her at this point.

Look, I have tried, in all the above that has gone on, including yesterdays transpirings with regard to the kids who were not invited, including the issue that it appeared there would be no initiation of any phone calls on their behalf with regard to their family who is failing to RSVP, I have tried, with these present issues, and the above to act with poise, grace, manners, and a sense of decorum that my daughter and her future dh be able to have a wedding that is not filled with turmoil and discord. I have extended myself all that I can do. And each time I am met with a brick wall by her. As I said, at this point, there is nothing that I can do, she loathes the ground I walk on, I suppose for the hateful remarks I said about her, in her son's presence, remarks that got carried back to her via my future son in law, thanks a heap.

The words I spoke about the woman were anything but words spoken with grace and manners, and any kind of peaceful decorum, that's for sure. They were ugly and they were swear words. But I had reached the end of my rope. The woman sends over here, after my begging pleading, stomping, shouting for mos. on end to get my hands on a guest list, she sends over a guest list that is double what her verbal head count had been. She had not even had the decency to give me a heads up along the way that there may be a problem, she just sends over her this list, that is double what she voiced as a head count in the mos. prior. And when questioned on it, her stance was "oh they won't all come".

Well by then, the venue had been contracted, based on the verbal head count given to me by her (and my head count on my end) that's all I had to go on, the woman had been asked repeatedy over mos. and mos. to produce a list for me, and couldn't manage to do so. I had already chosen a venue, the venue will not accomodate another 40 souls, it simply will not. Her answer to that dilemma was 'well they won't come, they just want an invitation for momento sake". My answer to that was "well that's when you send an ANNOUNCEMENT, not an invitation, you don't put an invitation in someone's hands and expect they won't come, you have to prepare for the fact that they just might COME. The venue had already been selected and contracted at that point, with a head count that she verbalized as 45 way way back when. I had asked repeatedly over several mos. time to get my hands on her written list. It wasn't until I showed my arse to get it, and that was the end of November. And it shows up double what she had as a verbal head count. Her answer to it was that they won't come. That is not an option at this point I cannot put invitations in people's hands that may just decide to come, not when the venue has been contracted based on the information I had available to me, inspite of my best efforts otherwise, ............... the venue simply will not hold that many more people, it won't, period. End of discussion.

So I guess because of that I HAVE RULED THE ROOST OVER HERE WITH AN IRON FIST with regard to planning this wedding. Not only that I have done so without regard for her input in any way/shape or form and excluded her, and in the process said some vicious horrible things about her and in front of her son. So I am to be loathed and despised as a result.

I am telling you what I am imparting here is the honest to God truth of the events that have transpired, I am not exaggerating one iota. This is what I have had to deal with. This is not a stretch in any way.

And so I blew in a big way, and said some horrible things about the woman.

Now why she has decided to tx my daughter the way she has, I'm not clear on. My daughter had nothing to do with that issue, and that all occured back in November, not recently. So I dunno.

As to the kids and their attendance, my daughter and the groom were both consulted at the onset of planning all this and both agreed they didn't want children part of the mix. I explained to both that they run the risk of hurting feelings, asked him specifically if there is anyone he knows of on his side, that would have hurt feelings, as I only have my brother who has children, and he would be understanding, I knew he would be okay with it, but I asked the groom specifically, does he have anyone in his family that would be hurt by this decision, he said no, said they'd have to get over it.

But here we are, at the juncture we're at. Some bonehead in his family decides they want to bring kids, and so now we're all supposed to drop back and punt. The groom says "now" that he does want them to be included if at all possible, especially, in light of the fact that there may be with regard to the RSVP's rolling in on his side, a shortage of about 7 or 8 or 9 folks, and so that should leave some spaces open, so can't the kids be allowed to fill that spot. I said to the groom "you were consulted on this, I even asked you specifically if there was anyone on your list that might be offended with your decision". he said "I know, I guess I just didn't think it through thoroughly". I said to the groom "well Look I am under no obligation those kids were not invited, and that was at yours and my daughters instruction, to not include children, I am under no obligation to try to accomodate children in any way. Because you guys have a shortfall on your side of folks that cannot make it, is not encumbent upon me to fill that slot with children, who were not invited in the first place, but to keep peace, to placate and do all I can to make this all you guys want it to be, I will try to do what I can to accomodate same, but with the preface that there are indeed, in the end, a shortfall of folks in your end of things, if you guys do somehow end up with not all who have been invited coming to this, then yes there will be slots that can be filled by those children if that's important to you, but you have to understand that will now necessitate that I will have to call my brother and include his children now, he will be hurt that kids were excluded and at this point that must mean his kids only, because there are other kids there, and you also have to understand this was done on yours and her instruction that you didn't want kids there, now I am not prepared for everybody who has kids to be bringing their kids, and so you will have others perhaps on your side, who didn't include their kids they read the invitation and saw that their kids were not listed, and so they made alternative arrangements for their kids, so are you prepared to deal with that?". He said he was, that he doesn't know of anyone else on his list that has kids, so it's not a problem. So I told him that I want a return phone call from his mother, so that she and I can be on the same page on this, and that his mother can be made aware that the kids presence there is contingent upon the fact that they have some "no" responses on thier side, which frees up some space to accomodate the kids, but that they may wish to provide some contingency plan with regard to child care in the event that is an issue. He said he'd have his mother call me.

You read how that phone call went. As so many other dealing with her have gone.

And as I said, my daughter used to be the one who I could go to in dealing with this woman, but for whatever the reason this woman is now bent with my daughter for reasons none of us are clear on.

My daughter and her wishes with regard to a couple that wants to bring not 1, not 2, but 3 children (and all under the age of 6). She ........... in the interest of pleasing the guy she loves, who considers this important is willing to be flexible. I hope she doesn't live to regret that. You have to remember she loves the guy, the fact that he spoke up initially in agreement that he doesn't want kids there, and now says he does, inconsequential to her. She wants everybody to be happy. There has been way more than enough discord, if this is something that will placate and keep peace, then she's on board for it. She wants to also walk a tight rope of trying to maintain some sense of peace with what will soon be her family, in a sense. I think she has bent over b'wards to do so, and in time, she may find that it doesnt matter what she does, unless she wants to kiss the woman's butt on a daily basis, the woman won't be happy. And my daughter won't be of the ilk to do so, not long term. But that is gonna be her little red wagon to push.

I'm sorry to say this but this story sounds all too familiar.

When I got married the first time I had some trouble with my MIL to be. The groom was pretty spineless and could never hold down a job. The parents babied him and paid for his bills when he failed to pay them. They medled constantly in our affairs and wanted to control everything. He went along with it. Eventually though, I think it was his lack of spinelessness that led to this, but he became physically abusive. He couldn't take a stand as a gentleman, so he just swung. It was a terrible marriage from the get-go but I stuck it out for 7 years because it 'was the right thing to do', 'I was being a good wife.' and 'I ?loved? him' and because we'd had sex before we were married so we 'HAD to get married to make it RIGHT'... NOT!!!

I know you can't tell your daughter what to do but I hope she can take a step back and look at what she's really getting into. Even if they've had sex they shouldn't get married unless she can really put up with this. What about when she has a baby and the MIL tries to tell your daughter that it's her fault if she ends up having a c-section or that it's terrible to breastfeed, or a million other blame/guilt/criticism tactics. Is your daughter really going to want to deal with that the rest of her life? If her husband to be can't stand up to his mother now and tell her to back off then he won't PROTECT his wife from his mother in the future and it could be terrible outcome.

I wish you the best and hope all others involved will see the light before it's too late.

Any solutions on how to handle this?

I am done dealing with the woman and told her as much last night on the phone, after her hateful attitude, once again, and my trying to work with the fact that it was one of her boneheads that included the kids, when they were specifically NOT invited. I was "TRYING" to make it workable, and she just wanted to be ugly, words were exchanged and I told her (and I mean it, for my own sanity at this point), I am done involving her, from here forward I won't bother her with the minutia of this wedding planning, she is hereby out of the loop. I told her that, and I mean it.

Now, having said that (and meant it), we have the 2/28 deadline approaching. Now technically the caterer and decorator person won't need their final headcount til about a week later, say 3/7. So I will allow for a little drag time on things. I'm not that harsh.

But I had tried to approach the woman on the lack of RSVP's rolling in and she was even ugly about that. She even said last night "I will go buy RSVP cards and send them in for those that don't do so, if that's what it's gonna take for you".

I wish I'd thought to say to her, what you suggested, when she was being ugly about people not returning their RSVP's. I wish I'd of said to her "that's not a problem, just have em drop me a note, give em my addy and have em drop me a note, that'll suffice". But I didn't think to say that.

So, I know we are not yet to the 28th and maybe this week we will be slammed with the RSVP's on their side, but I somehow doubt that. And I think that I will then be expected to go on what SHE considers okay, which is HER verbal okay on this one, that one, the other one, and so on and so forth. I WOULD HAVE BEEN WILLING to work with this situation to a degree anyway, not now though, she can go pound sand. I had tried, and tried to be gracious. But that, at this point is OUT THE WINDOW. My side have all, all of them, but a couple, responded as to whether they are coming or not. The fact that her side doesn't know what to do with an RSVP card in their hands, and throws it in the trash or whatever they do with it, is not my problem. I'm done being gracious.

Now one might suggest that I go to my daughter and let her be the go-between, but if you've read the posts you will see that my daughter and her future mil are at odds with one another, all because my daughter's moving day somehow *did not take the woman's feelings into consideration* and the woman was hurt and crushed, and so she isn't speaking to my daughter either.

So, any suggestions as to how to proceed from here. Obviously I will wait til I have to give a head-count which won't be for a couple of weeks yet, ........... so no need for panic. But, .............. what to do when I am done dealing with the woman, she is irrational and unreasonable, and I will not keep banging my head on that wall.

Any suggestions?

Well if it were me..... since I had already committed to the wedding and there was no way to convince my daughter to elope. I would take a deep breath, fix myself a vodka tonic and write a check for the $600... a lot of money yes, but it's money already budgeted for and a cheap price to pay to eliminate the stress. Once I did this, I'd fix myself another drink, call MOG and apologize and say I was just getting too stressed out and ask her to forgive you and could you start afresh. And do so with a sincere heart...

Mind you.. I'm not saying you are wrong in any of this, sometimes we apologize just because it's the best thing to do. You are the hostess of this event, you are the one who sets the tone. This is your party, you want everyone to come and have a wonderful time... it won't happen if there is this kind of tension and stress in the air. It won't be easy though. (((Hugs)))

LOL. Not funny I know but it reminds me of something my daughter tells me occured a few mos. back w/regard to her future mil.

There had been some words exchanged, between her and her parents here. Having to do with us voicing concern over whether he is gonna stick with this latest job he has (he had just started training, like 1 1/2 weeks before, as a trucker, and then somehow, no real explanation, was home for a period of a month here, training to be a trucker, he'd gone on the road as a trainee, and the set up for same that we'd been told was that he'd be gone, likely for about 3 mos. yet mysteriously, without real explanation he was home, for about a month).

We did ask him what that was about and I could list it all here, but suffice it to say it was a convoluted explanation at best that didn't really make any good sense.

We had questioned our daughter once he did leave again, only from the premise *is he doing alright with this, what's going on here, because you know we have said all along if the guy won't keep a job we will not pay for a wedding, that's all there is to it". Hopefully you read the other posts where it was explained he's had 14 jobs, and them show up here wanting to get married, and our concerns thereof with his lack of work ethic.

Her dad voiced some concern to her, and she got furious with us. In other words her stance at this point is that he loves what he is doing, why do you guys have to keep harping on that topic, I cannot wait til we get married and past this, and if he quits 14 more jobs, it'll be OURS to deal with, NOT YOU GUYS. Yes, Yes, we've explained to her, ahhhh, but when you are asking us to open our pocketbook to fund a wedding, we DO have a say-so. And yes, we've explained to her that she is so right, when they are married people and he's had 40 jobs, doesn't matter to us, if she wants to work 3 jobs to support him and the 2 or 3 children that may be on the scene by then, while he bounces around looking for different opportunities, then so be it, she's right, their life, as long as they pay THEIR OWN BILLS.

So, there were some words exchanged over that topic here in this household. I guess she was so upset by it, that she called her fiance' and in tears and expressing her frustration at the subject.

I guess what happened next was that the fiance', must've told his mother what occured over here, with regard to questioning his shaky work foundation. Told his mom what, I don't know, .............. I guess, that Sara called him in tears, etc. etc.

The next day my daughter was at work, and her cell phone rang. It was her future mil, in tears. She said the following to my daughter "Ya know, I'm going to have to ask that you not share these troubles with him, he is halfway across the country there is nothing he can do about them, you need to leave him alone and not bother him with the troubles that go on, be it family, financial, otherwise, you need to let him work, that is not right of you to do that, you have me so upset that you've upset him, you cannot do that to him".

My daughter, being young and naieve (sp?), responded that she was so sorry, maybe she was wrong, she shouldn't of done that, won't do it again.

Wasn't until later that it occured to her, wait just a second, that is going to be my husband, I can call him and discuss whatever in the name of God I feel like discussing, if he has a problem with not wanting to talk to me about it, he can tell me, not his mother, and his mother is NOT going to start out this marriage dictating what I do and don't talk to my husband about, oh hell nah.

She called her future dh, and told him that if his mother EVER does that again, she will meet a side of her daughter in law that she has never seen (I've seen it, it isn't pleasant, sort of like myself who let the swear words fly about the woman). Told her future dh that if there is a topic that she needs to discuss with him, if he doesn't wanna talk about it, they will figure that out, the two of them, not his mother. And further that he should not be going and whining and tattling to his mother, *oh she upset me, I'm trying to work, she upset me*.

What in the world. I have been married 30 years this year, and granted I have a terrific mil, but she has never ever said that to me once. That I cannot disturb my husband about what's on my mind, while he's trying to work. Nor has my mother ever said anything resembling that to my husband. The audacity of that woman.

What I did do was speak to the planner/coordinator/decorator sorta person yesterday.

My concern had been that the MOG's assertion that I am being ridiculous about the RSVP's being returned, and that she will give me a verbal, over-the-phone head count, was causing me some concern. Particularly since she apparently finds it okay to allow her family without discussion on the topic to throw 3 kids under the age of 6 into the mix, when she knew that kids had been purposely ommitted by the bride and groom.

Thus, my concern. How many others is she going to allow, to throw in their great aunt madge that can't be left home along, and the bldg janitor where aunt madge lives, and the neighbor named Harry and his brother Tom, for crying out loud. Without the presence of those little pieces of paper that she considers so insignifigant (the RSVP's) what assurances do I really have that this thing won't turn into a circus. I have to have some semblance of order to it all. I've put far too much work into all this.

I don't want to come up short on food/servings, because the woman tells everybody she knows to come, and/or tells em not to bother with those pesky little RSVP's.

The planner (she's just acting as sort of a consultant, for a fee), said for me to put it on her. Said that she is anyway, a stickler for detail, those RSVP's will be utilized as a means of determining the number of chairs, tables, chair covers, sashes, place settings, etc, etc. Said for me to get word to the MOG that indeed, she does want every single last RSVP as a means to that end. That if folks have lost their RSVP and are not able to locate it, that a simple hand written note will also suffice, but that yes, she does indeed want those vs. a verbal/phoned in head count. Said that I can give the MOG her phone number if necessary, she'll be glad to discuss the issue if MOG has a problem with it.

So, I don't wish to argue with a fence post anymore, so I passed word thru the groom, for him to pass along to his mother, the above. Hopefully word gets translated appropriately and accurately, but if not. Not on me.

So now how to truly work out for sure, that she doesn't throw into the mix people that were not on the list, at all, ever, and we only have "x" number of servings (which I will do, I will pay for what was budgeted to do, which was her 45 she was allowed, the 45 I was allowed, and the 20 that my daughter and her future dh were allowed). I will, for my own peace of mind, just write that check, so that I know I have it covered as far as servings go. But, what to do about whether the woman is such a cad that she'd tell each family member that has children, "oh bring em, they didn't mean it", or tell each family member "oh just bring old aunt madge, she's just one more person, doesn't matter", since this whole concept seems so lost on her. And thereby I come up short in the end, not enough servings of the buffet dinner, as a result. I don't have that worked out yet. I don't know what the woman is capable of, at this point.

doaker,

Would it be possible for the coodinator to call the MOG directly and tell her the importance of the RSVPs? Sometimes a neutral party can really take the emotion aspect out of the situation.

As far as your future son-in-law, he will ALWAYS be more loyal to his parents. Don't expect that to change. I would be very careful about what you say in front of him (I'm sure you already know that). It does work both ways....if you say flattering things about them, when he is there, it will also get back to them. I know that may be difficult (or impossible) but for your daughter's sake, it would be wise to try and keep the relationship at least civil.

It is the most difficult thing in the world to stand and watch our adult children make mistakes and then still be supportive when things go wrong. It is heartbreaking especially when there are grandchildren involved. I think the best you can do is trust that you've raised them best as you could and hopefully they'll make the right decisions in their life. The important thing is look after yourself and find what makes you happy. When this is all over try to relax and let your daughter deal with her own problems. I know this is easier said than done and I'm not minimize how hard this is to do but for your own welfare, it is important.

DianaJJ

It starts again..............

What is this 2 days later?

I just passed along word to the groom that the planner/decorator person is a stickler for detail, that the RSVP's have to be in writing, that if there are any questions she'll be glad to discuss it with the future mil.

Don't know whether word got passed along or not. I assumed it would be, if it doesn't, I don't know what to say.

Here we are, 2 days later.

Daughter over t'nite. Mind you, she hasn't' had two words with the future mil since the day the mil wouldn't let her come by her house, on moving day, to take things, ultimately culminating in the future mil leaving some things on the lawn for my daughter to pick up.

Daughter extended an olive branch a few days beyond that, and the woman didn't answer my daughter. Only sent word thru her son "she isn't ready to talk to you right now".

Thus, no words spoken between the two since.

Tonight, daughter over here. She picks up her phone, reads a text, it's from future mil, reads as follows:

"Suzie is coming, but she's lost her RSVP, Jose is not"

Ok, first problem. There was no Jose by Suzie's name, not on the master list given to me, by the future mil. We already had 3 kids thrown into the mix here that were not invited. But I am working to accomodate that. Then t'nite, it's said "jose is not" I didn't know Jose had been invited.

Doesn't matter. Jose isn't coming (Jose is Suzie's b'friend), I knew that, somewhere vaguely in my mind, but I don't keep track of who is who in that family to have remembered to include Jose. Jose wasn't on the list by the name of Suzie. But apparently, somewhere along the line, somebody thought it okay that Jose be included, but this is news to me.

Doesn't matter. Jose isn't coming.

But does matter, from the respect, how many others are there that nobody accounted for, that will now be thrown into the mix. As were the kids, as was Jose, unbeknown to me.

But what does matter is that I JUST SAID two days ago, the planner wants the RSVP's in writing. If the person has lost their RSVP, they can jot it on a handwritten note, and return it, that's fine, but the planner wants it in writing, for each person that will be there. I JUST SAID THAT TWO DAYS AGO.

But daughter sitting here t'nite, gets a text from her future mil, that Suzie is coming.

I guess, ................????..................what................????? ............... I'm to now drop what I'm doing, since I certainly won't have an RSVP in my face staring at me to address and deal with it, and mark the person off appropriately. So I'm to what?, make a mental note, to do so later, hope I don't forget, ......... drop what I'm doing and go handle it right now.

Is this how we're now gonna handle RSVP'ing from that side, various texts that come in along the way here and there. And I can just drop what Im doing the send a text comes thru, and take care of that, or drop what I'm doing and jot it down, so I don't forget to mark them on the master list.

I JUST SAID THIS TWO DAYS AGO, that the planner wants it in writing.

So I responded to my daughter, "ok, she can jot it on a note, and send it along, I'll mark her as coming when I get it".

My daughter said with a sigh, "Mom it's Suzie, can't you just mark her as coming". I said to my daughter,"I just told your groom two days ago to pass this info along to his mother, I am not going to start this, she is going to have to send something in writing, if she wants any of her side of things accomodated, with chairs, tables, places to sit, place settings, food, I said it and I meant it".

My daughter then grabbed her purse to go home, and said on her way out "this puts me in such a difficult position", and she left.

Talked to her later and she had been crying. Said it's handled. I don't know how she handled it. But she said it's handled.

The woman already, ALREADy, two days after I said it, is trying to pull her antics. And I come out looking like mud for it.

As far as I'm concerned, time for everybody to pull on their big boy underpants, and big boy panties, and grow the hell up and do what it is they need to be doing.

I have decided there will be assigned seats there (I don't care that everybody move about once all are accounted for, but with this woman, it's gonna be imperative that we have assigned seats so as to lessen the presence of folks there that I don't even know are to be there, were not invited).

The RSVP's in hand, will determine that.

So what gives here? Is the woman this stupid? Or is this now a pizzing match here? She is gonna SHOW ME that she is gonna do this HER WAY, which is the laziest possible way out. As she's been all along.

Hi doaker,

So how are things going? Did you get back most of the RSVPs? Fill us in on the lastest developments!

DianaJJ

I sent out for their side, 20 invitations which included reception cards and RSVP cards. That encompassed the 45 people they were inviting.

I got back 9 RSVP cards.

Of those 9 RSVP cards, their folks threw in some *extra* folks to come along, children (5 total, and there were to be none).

What did end up happening was that my daughter got with his mother and I guess they went down the list and one by one, entered the number for each and every invite, whether it be a "0" cuz they weren't coming, or whether it be a "1", or a "2", or in some cases, "5" .............. because folks are bringing along their children.

No nothing was ever said further.

I just took the list and went with it.

Taking the high road, as they say. Again.

Oh but I'm the evil mean witch over here that has run rough-shod over everything to do with this wedding.

I can't stand that woman.

I've had no further contact with her at all. And that suits me just fine. The rehearsal should be interesting. Not to mention the wedding, and reception. I will rise above it all, and act accordingly for my daughter's sake. But I would just as soon not have to be in the same hemisphere with her, much less the same room.

dear doaker, i wish you the best of luck, i too have a son marrying in may. we are having 200 guests and i know the stress. we had an explosion a month or so ago but that has since died down but the stress is still never ending. but i knew i was wearing floor length from the get go because of my legs regardless of what she wanted, but she was happy with it, and she chose the color. you are going to look beautiful in your gown and she is going to wish she had worn something a little more fitting. my gown isnt finished being made yet but i cannot wait to see it. i didnt get to run around and try them on with the bride and the mob because of my injury so i had to just pick one and be happy. it is very beautiful. the parents of the bride were going to pay the bulk of the wedding but their daughter passed away last fall and they had to pay for that out of pocket and my husband and i were always going to help out but now we have decided to just kick in more and the bride and groom have put in quite a substantial amout themselves. they also just bought a new home. my church alone, this year of course, increased their wedding fee by $400. i just wish i was able to walk down the aisle, or be able to dance the mother son dance with my son. i am going to try like heck...my docs are working with me and with trying to be able sit there the whole reception because of the pain and spasticity. these are such great fears and its sressing me out so bad. but please, dont let this woman spoil one of the most wonderful days of your life. if she wants to be miserable and clueless, let her.

I'm sorry you are having health struggles at a time like this. That sure makes things a lot tougher, I'm sure.

Ahhh, as to what the MOG is wearing. Apparently the pants suit that I had been so miffed about, ............ that was just an item up for decision, that wasn't a done deal. I wasn't aware of that. The decision has now been made. My daughter showed me the gown the woman is wearing, showed it to me on the website. She is wearing a floor length dress now. My daughter, very upset by her choice, because as she said "the two colors the mothers aren't supposed to wear, black and white, she manages to pick a gown that has BOTH colors, and it doesn't go with anything in my weddding".

My daughter showed me the dress online, and she was miffed, because it's black and white, and because it doesn't match anything in her wedding. I was rather proud of myself at my objectivity on the topic. I actually like it. And might've chosen it for myself had I seen it. It looks like a skirt and top, but it isn't, it's a one piece whole gown, but the bottom .......... the part that looks like it's the skirt is a solid black, sort of taffeta, and the top is a white, off the shoulders silky sorta material. So it's black and white. I actually like it, I think it's pretty and said so. My daughter was angry about her choice, and said it won't go with anything, "Mom your dress is a pretty milk chocolate brown, the bridesmaid dresses are a pretty pastel melon green, ............. black and white?, that doesn't go with anything?". But she would NEVER say that to his mom. I'm sure to his mom she said something akin to *oh it's gorgeous*.

I happen to think it will work fine. Yea maybe she could've chosen something that would compliment the colors of the wedding a little better, and not worn black and white, but the gown is gorgeous, I love it. And I told my daughter so.

I hope you'll be able to get to the point that you can dance with your son at his wedding. And bless you for being a MOG that is engaged enough to help out. If nobody from that side told you, it's wonderful to have that. I wouldn't know, we haven't had it. But it must be wonderful.

As to whether the MOG will ruin things for me. I'm going to try not to let it get the best of me. I don't even plan on really speaking to her. There will be enough folks around (total of 103) that I will be distracted and busy with everyone else. The less contact I have to have with her, the better for everyone involved.

I just cannot stand a person who sits and laments and whines and pizzes and moans *oh woe with me, nobody included me, poor pitiful put upon me*. I cannot stand that, IN ANYONE, on any topic. That just grates me. My feeling on that is that if she was feeling that way (and how she could I don't know, hell the things I asked for, she couldn't even manage, not without it turning into a problem), but my feeling on that is that if she truly felt that way, then why wasn't she stepping up to the plate, why wasn't she sitting the groom and the bride down, and telling them, that she'd like to be more involved in all of it, that her feelings were hurt. I'll tell you why, because she is selfish and narcissistic, ........... she never intended to do one thing,........... she just wants to sit and wipe her brow at the mistreatment she has rec'd at the hands of this evil mean witch MOB who ran rough-shod over everything and never allowed her to be a part of it all. Oh but when you ask her, on the varied points she likes to raise, (not having hand carried her invitation to her, not allowing her to purchase the invitations - an after the fact gesture I might add on her behalf), when you ask her "well did you make that known to your son and his fiance'?". Her answer is an angry "I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO".

Interesting that nobody really confronts her. My daughter says of the above "Mom I'm so glad that she wasn't involved, she can't get anything done, look at the times we've had to get with them for family events/dinners, etc., they never know what they're doing, where they're going, they're always running late, nobody can make a decision, if she were in charge of any of this, we'd be sitting here at this point not knowing what church, or what venue for the reception, with no DJ, with no caterer, no decorator, you name it, whatever it is that she was supposed to do, it wouldn't of gotten done".

Oh but she's hurt, nobody involved her. The woman can go fly a kite for all I care.

Oh and the video montage that had been an issue. Couldn't ever get any pics from her. That was months and months and months ago. We shelved the idea initially. Figured we'd cut that out of the budget and save a few bucks in the end, rather than fight with the woman over yet one more confounded thing we'd asked for that wasn't brought forth. We needed pics of her son, through his growing up years, for this montage. And it was stated all along that we'd just be borrowing them, they'd be returned in tact. But still, they never did come forth.

Finally at the last we did decide to go ahead with that video montage item. Daughter got with the MOG and sat down with the picture album. But the MOG had her mother there in attendance at this *choose the pics* session. Sounds like they ran rough shod over the setting. My daughter would find something she thought suitable, but they'd squelch that choice because one of them was in the picture and didn't look good in it. They sort of put together, between the MOG and the g'mother what it is they wanted my daughter to have for this montage.

Now mind you, my daughter took over there with her, for this session, the stack of pics chosen for her section, he growing up years. Her stack included pics from all stages of her life, newborn, baby, toddler, little girl, pre-teen, teen, young woman, and now. A total of about 15 pics in all.

She took over there with her, the compilation for her section of this montage, so that the MOG could see what it is we're trying to achieve.

The MOG gave my daughter about 50 pics (way too many) and almost all of them pics of her son as a baby. A few of him as a grown man, and a couple of him as a little school boy. But pre-teen, teen, nope. None.

Even my husband, who is so clueless as to all this, as my daughter and I sat and looked thru those 50 pics, and he was looking at them, even he said "where's the pics of him as a teen, as a young man?". There weren't any. Even my husband, who hasn't paid any attention at all to what we're trying to achieve here, even he noticed the glaring absence of some of the stages in the guy's life.

I talked to the gal that was putting it all together for me and she said "well you'll know that's missing because you know what you were trying to achieve, but I don't think anyone else will really notice it".

She got it all put together for me. Put to music, just still shots and put to music. It opens with a picture of the two of them together and begins to tell the story, thru pics and music. For his section, the pics of him growing up the song "Today I Met the Boy I'm Gonna Marry" plays. For her section, the part that shows her years growing up, the song "Just One Look", plays. And it culminates in pics of them together as a couple, playing to the song, Buddy Holly's "True Love Ways".

We got that video montage back and were paying it here on our DVD player. My husband asked me, as he watched it "well do you think she'll see now, when she sees this, that there is a glaring absence of pics of him as a young man?". It is glaring, if you know what it was that was the purpose here. I responded "no, I think she's too stupid, I don't think it'll even occur to her".

So, even that, something so simple, so easy, even that she managed to screw it up.

But whatever. We went with it as it is. And it is nice, glad we did it.