For those who don’t know me my wife and I are going through a shaky period. I have acknowledged and adjusted my behaviors in an attempt to help me get back into my wife good graces. I am also in belief that part of our difficulties is due to my wife (52) being somewhere in the menopause process but is not willing to admit it. I am starting to notice something that has to do with her saying one thing, but her actions say another. For example; she has continually said that she “needs space” from me but on our shared days off, she chooses to do stuff with me almost all of the time, Food shopping, getting gifts from the boys etc. I am pleased as can be by this, but she has stated, again, that she needs her space. She has also said that she would be sleeping somewhere else in the house, but she does not because she does not want to upset the boys. We do however sleep in the same bed, and almost nightly she rolls over towards me and comes in contact in someway and stays there. Then one night we had a quarrel to the point where I lost my temper and restrained her with a bear hug type hold which caused her to start joking around and it then turned into play. A couple of minutes later she came back, mad as could be and said never to come at her like that, and the next day punished me by doing something after work with a girl friend, but didn’t tell me/us at the time.
Have any of you guys had this experience? Say one thing but do another?
Thanks, Devoted

Yes, and I'm sure you've done it also. I don't see the meno connection????

I think she was probably "joking around" with you when you were physically restraining her because she was afraid (anyone being physically restrained by someone else would be) and that's the only way she could think of to diffuse the tension and get herself freed. Are you working on this behavior with a counselor or something? Her mixed messages could be due to her lack of trust in you, which would be a result of being treated that way.

Devoted,

Don't be caught up on the daily ups and down. You don't want to be over sensitive on her every move, and as Leanne is correct... we do the same thing.
Live each day the best you can ... and not trying to do it for her, but for yourself. In the end ... you will be happy ... its up to you.

I replied to your private message ... sorry it took so long.

Take care
Yaz

I think we have a situation where we have a gender difference. Some women get passive agressive in situations like this, some men get agressive. It's an outlet of frustration. This is not a situation of abuse, it's a situation where frustration was being expressed in a physical manner.

The comment about working with a counselor about the behavior is over the top here. He had an episode of being frustrated and held onto his wife. It's like holding on for dear life. Let's be careful about making someone think they are being abusive when they are not. This could be abusive behavior if it's happening often. But this man is talking about one incident. Let's try to keep a grip on reality.

I would like to know how you or anyone else can truly know what happened here????

In my opinion, this is single handedly the BEST advice!! We ALL need to follow this, meno or no meno. LOVE this!!

oops - dont know how that happened -- I would like to know why you found it necessary to restrain your wife with a bear hug? Was she physically attacking you? I do not feel that giving bear hugs is appropriate behaviour other than to protect yourself from being attacked.

Personally it would make me feel suffocated and controlled.

Frustration should NEVER be expressed in a physical manner. And your arrogant comment "Lets try to get a grip on reality" has really offended me!

I heavily debated whether to use the example I used thinking that it might divert the discussion which it has. To describe what took place seems necessary. I called my wife on something she did that was very hurtful to me. Her reaction was to stand at the door to the room I was in and yell at me [u][u]repeatedly, “stand up and I will kick your ass”. She was very persistent at eliciting a response from me and did not act like she was going to stop until I gave her one. In controlling her with a “bear hug” I made it clear that she was not going to “kick my ass” and that is when it turned into a moment of play. Her “friendly” mood continued long enough that I thought that maybe we might have an intimate moment. That is how much her mood had changed. It wasn’t until several minutes went by that it swung back the other way, back to the intense anger. I understand that something like this is open for a wide interpretation and I understand everyone’s concerns. I assure all that their fears are unfounded and what they are implying is not something that is part of our problem. Things like this happen between people and believe me, if my wife had any fears, she would be long gone.
The express reason to include it was as another example of the roller coaster I am riding, and if you combine the others, a pattern appears.
Thank you all for your concerns. Devoted

I completely agree with you EP!

Putting your hands on another human being except to LOVE or to PROTECT yourself is NEVER ok.

ANY type of restraint is a form of abuse and if my husband did that to me I WOULD kick his ass! I would of expected my husband to walk away, storm away, scream as he was storming away but I would NOT expect him or allow him to hold me down. Oh and by the way ONE TIME CAN be constituted as abuse. Do I think it applies here? No. I think things just went really wrong really fast, but I do not believe someone has the right to restrain another unless they are protecting themselves and you do not state she actually came AT you and hit you.

You better believe it!!! I'd lay a man out on the floor FAST if he EVER laid his hands on me to restrain me like that..........especially after past experience!!! Your best bet is to walk away FAST!!!!

I don't mean to make light of a serious situation... but Bev... YOU COULD HAVE A BIRD DIVE BOMB HIM!! You wouldn't need to lay him out! LOL

Don't forget you are talking to some ravenous, menopausal women here, who are past trying to please anyone anymore!!!

Leanne, What an excellent idea!!!! They would sure do it too!!! I'll get one of those big, beautiful Macaw's that you want to just hold and squeeze and love and when you least expect it, they take your finger off, or maybe even a vital organ!! OHHHHH!!!! Leanne!!!! We are gettin good!!!!!

QUOTE (leanne0721 @ Jan 16 2009, 02:27 PM)
I don't mean to make light of a serious situation... but Bev... YOU COULD HAVE A BIRD DIVE BOMB HIM!! You wouldn't need to lay him out! LOL


quote name='TidalWaves' date='Jan 16 2009, 08:31 PM' post='261008']
Leanne, What an excellent idea!!!! They would sure do it too!!! I'll get one of those big, beautiful Macaw's that you want to just hold and squeeze and love and when you least expect it, they take your finger off, or maybe even a vital organ!! OHHHHH!!!! Leanne!!!! We are gettin good!!!!!
[/quote]



LOL! You two

I vote for a vital organ!!

Hi - I am hopeful that what I say doesn't offend anyone but this is my opinion. The woman sounds hysterical...to the point of irrational. He was tired and delerious. I don't think his intention was to hurt her. I understand the sentiments expressed by my friends, but I think this guy has been through quite a bit and deserves a bit of a break from us here.

JMO

Peace,
Suzanne

As usual... your compassionate self is showing through He DID address this post to the "Guys" so maybe we jumped in where we weren't invited.

At the same time... posting on a menopause website expecting women not to reply is a bit farfetched if you ask me. He says he's on a roller coaster ride. "Controlling her with a bear hug" is part of the problem, regardless of how irrational she was being.

JMO

Hi Suz -

I'm sure you're not offending anyone here. I'd like to get back to this on a more serious note if I may. By my own personal admittance, Suz, I too have been hysterical at times - does that make me bad or possibly desperate? A very poorly managed peri/menopause and one that is prolonged over many months is enough to make any woman hysterical. You dont know how shes dealing with this - The best thing to do is to walk away when these things happen and give the woman space. I do not agree with man handling a woman - sorry. And actually I dont condone any type of abuse. It's wrong. If she were attacking him then that would be a different matter --

I agree EP with what you and TW say. Walking away if you can is definitely the best solution. Wasn't she by the door? It just sounds to me as though he is in a very difficult and fragile situation. I don't really know what a bear hug is either.

I think that we should find ways to support him somehow. It is hard to change your behaviour if you are being scolded - which perhaps he deserves/d.

I feel sorry for Devoted from what I have read...again, I am not condoning physical abuse.

Suzanne

We only have one side of the story here, remember. Restraint, unless someone is coming at you physically to attack you, is totally uncool. I think he needs to walk a mile in her moccasins & see how he would feel if someone did that to him. I have problems with claustrophobia, so any kind of confinement like that would totally freak me out and get me very angry. This reaction from Devoted does not sound like compassion and I'm sure if he looks back on the situation he could come up with a dozen better ways to have handled the situation rather than becoming physical and hoping that would turn into something romantic. Oy.

True Bookworm...the romantic thing - OY...

I agree. Suz. I know this might upset some, but it seems that many times we meno women expect our husbands or SO to be totally understanding and compassionate about all our issues, including bad behaviors, yet if he exhibits anything less that ultimate understanding, compassion, and help at all times, we're ready to castrate him pronto.

Would we be able to be totally understanding, day in and day out, for several years at a time with a man who acts like we act without losing control ourselves at times? I will be perfectly honest here and say that my husband has been much more patient and understanding of me during my long, difficult peri times, than I would have been with him had the situation been reversed. There have been some times where he wasn't so understanding and I would be upset, but I had to admit that if it were me I would also have lost control, and probably even worse.

Both men and women behave badly, and neither of us always handles the other perfectly at all times. We are all going through meno hell, but we need to get outside ourselves if at all possible and realize men are human too and as such have a limit to how tolerant and understanding they can be when their wife is undergoing a massive change physically, mentally, and emotionally, 24/7 for very long periods of time.

It concerns me that on a forum specifically for men that conclusions are jumped to and such anger is aroused without looking at the big picture and understanding the full context and history of the situation. Let's lighten up on these men and seek to understand the whole picture.

If he had said that he looked back and realized he could have handled the situation differently it would be one thing. That he justified the restraint behavior and indicated he'd hoped it would lead to an intimate moment is what set off alarms in my head. Sorry, I cannot bring myself to take any kind of physical bullying lightly. Too many times it can lead to acts of further aggression. IMHO

SARIAH - That is exactly what I wish I had the guts to say but didn't! Well said. I agree with you 100 percent.

Suzanne

Sariah,
Very good post! You make a lot of sense and I agree with what you are saying.
I have held off on replying until now...unless I was there and saw and heard what happened, it is none of my business to pass judgment on this man or his wife.
Let's try to keep open minds and think about both sides of the story...especially since we don't really know what happened or in what context it happened.

I agree...let's give these men a break. The fact that they take the time to come to these forums tells me that they CARE, which is more than we can say about many men. I hope this man has the courage to keep posting after all this negative judgement.

Hugs to all,
Di

Then one night we had a quarrel to the point where I lost my temper and restrained her with a bear hug type hold which caused her to start joking around and it then turned into play. A couple of minutes later she came back, mad as could be and said never to come at her like that, and the next day punished me by doing something after work with a girl friend, but didn’t tell me/us at the time.

Obviously she was very disturbed by his "bear hug type hold" and he admittingly did it when, as he said, " I lost my temper." Unless she was physically attacking him, and I do not remember reading that she did anything like that, he should have shown enough respect to her to leave her alone.

I am only going by what he has said and I don't care who hit who, or who restrained who, it should never be done........by anyone!!

Phew! That was a good series of posts.

I'm sorry if I offended anyone, but I was trying to calm things down as I have had PM communication with this man. This was a "cry for help" to understand how what he did got so out of control so fast. I think we've all been in situations with a loved one where things seem to be going one direction and they flip the other.

Thanks to all the women who posted here in support of us guys.

Phew! I say again.

I love this forum, but there are times I fear posting. I hope we are all OK now. Truly.

[quote name='Sariah' ,

Would we be able to be totally understanding, day in and day out, for several years at a time with a man who acts like we act without losing control ourselves at times? I will be perfectly honest here and say that my husband has been much more patient and understanding of me during my long, difficult peri times, than I would have been with him had the situation been reversed.

It concerns me that on a forum specifically for men that conclusions are jumped to and such anger is aroused without looking at the big picture and understanding the full context and history of the situation. Let's lighten up on these men and seek to understand the whole picture.
[/quote]


Peri/menopause isn't day in and day out. I'm quite sure there are days when a marriage is happy and running smoothly. There is the odd day however, where the woman might feel overwhelmed and loses control - thats putting it in perspective. That to me is what men are dealing with and that to me is what my husband deals with. No, we're not all saints and yes, I agree we're not all going to be totally understanding, but neither do we have the right to physically abuse our partners for whatever reason. Pushing is WRONG, slapping is WRONG and giving bear hugs is WRONG. I dont need to know the whole story to realise that. When a man gets to the point where he loses his temper he should WALK AWAY. What's wrong with walking away? What's wrong with sitting down like 2 grown adults and discussing things? I'm not excusing the womans behaviour at all so please dont misunderstand me, BUT anyone who condones this type of physical contact concerns me. And I will lighten up, Sariah, when people on this thread stop telling me to get a grip.

Deep breaths everyone. I am hopeful that this will help to calm us down.

I have learned in my life thus far that people are often isunderstood. We often jump to a negative conclusion and may not have all of the facts clearly. Devoted is not on trial is he? I know that is not what is meant but it is sounding a bit like that...a bit judgmental.

I still want to offer support to Devoted. ALL of us make mistakes. He should feel safe to post here and confide in us. It's not fair...or kind. Hopefully, we learn more from each other when we are not attacking one another. I reiterate, but Devoted did say that his wife was in the door way which would make it somewhat hard for him to leave the room. She sounded out of control and almost emotionally abusive to me. I wasn't there and this in my interpretation of the events - and it very well could be a misinterpretation. We all misinterpret.

All of us have our breaking points when faced with stressful situations. I know I do. I am not perfect. I am a work in progress. I make mistakes.

I don't think that Devoted is a wife beater or over the top abusive. He is hurting and loves his wife from what he says on here.

Devoted, I want to help you understand your situation if I can. I am sorry that you are hurting. Please continue to engage with us.

Blessings,
Suzanne

**Sigh**

Reg, I can understand your fear of posting on this forum.

I gather from reading this entire thread, from start to finish, that it has turned into a debate over what is abuse and what isn't. I don't believe that Devoted was abusive. If somebody is screaming at him, and for some time it sounds like, and is baiting him and saying "bring it on, I'll kick your ass".....well something is gonna give!! You all say that a restraining bear hug is abuse....how is being screamed at and threatened NOT abuse??? SHE was being abusive!!! And if she pushed the guy over the edge....it is her fault!! And she didn't push him into abuse in my opinion. He physcially restrained her to make his point...which was...there is no way she COULD kick his ass.

Maybe you ladies have had previous experience with abusive men, but I have seen abusive women in action. Women can be downright mean, and think they can get away with it....just because they are women. That is just WRONG. You ladies, my friends one and all, seem to forget that women are flawed creatures too. My dad used to say...if you play with the bull you are going to get the horn....and it is true. Devoted sounds like a loving husband who is trying to keep his marriage together. He has a crazy peri wife who isn't behaving rationally....and yet you attack HIM, even though he didn't instigate the situation. He was looking for support, maybe a way to deal with his wife better than he did.....and help him understand her huge mood swings....and you have judged him harshly instead. That isn't helpful.

To me it sounds like Devoted's behaviour diverted the possibility of violence, because his wife sounds like she was ready to "take him on". Ladies, please please try not to always jump on the "I am woman" bandwagon, and try and look at the big picture. I hope I haven't lost any of my wonderful friends over this post....but man, this poor Devoted needs support!!!

Floater - GMTA

OMG SUZ!!!!! HAHA!! They DO!!!

I think these guys are looking for a bit of support and understanding. They love their wives and are obviously concerned and proactive enough to seek out answers. By sharing with us they hope they can better understand the changes that are occurring in their partners or marriages. On the whole I think that would require some degree of sensitivity and vulnerability. They might not always deal with things in an appropriate manner, but who does all of the time? I don't think the original poster was being intentionally abusive, I mean it was a hug afterall, be it 'bear' or otherwise. Maybe not the wisest move on his part especially with an aggressive peri-menopausal woman!

I'd like to give these guys a pat on the back for making the effort to seek out answers and help. Hopefully they will find advice and understanding. A lot of husbands would not take the time, or even have the inclination to try and understand what their wives are going through.

Oh, and I meant to add to the above post that I agree with Sariah, Suz and Floater. You girls show compassion and insight.

I've seen abusive men AND abusive women too! Believe me when I say this, Floater, being in an abusive relationship is no fun! I'm not going to retract what I've said in my previous posts -- If Devoted wants to continue to handle his wifes perimenopause by "restricting" her with a "bear hug" when she verbally abuses him then thats his prerogative, but dont expect me to be silent about it. Her abuse maybe provoked by perimenopause but she cant control it! She obviously needs help and restraining is NOT the help she needs. The husband on the other hand is not physiologically affected by perimenopause, so he is able to think more clearly and should think of other ways to deal with the situation. Maybe counselling would be a good idea for both of them.

I've been in a very abusive relationship -- started with pushing and then progressed to slapping until eventuallty other bloody things happened which I am not prepared to go into. Devoted and his wife sound like they are in a very volatile relationship - they both need help before it gets out of hand. Now thats my take on it like it or not but I'm going to say it either way!


Floater, your comment ----["SHE was being abusive!!! And if she pushed the guy over the edge....it is her fault!!"]] --- I'm not trying to be awkward but I dont honestly believe I just read that from you. I am floored.

It doesn't matter who you agree or disagree with. Thats not the point.

I really couldn't care less if it's Devoted or RegGuy or any one of the LADIES here or there or anywhere..... I refuse to accept physical restraint of any nature as OK, if it is done against another person's will and unless.

There are civil ways of handling disputes between two mature adults. Yes, she crossed the line also, but unless someone is holding a gun to my head, I have the freedom to walk away.

A soft word turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger. They are both guilty and imo 2 wrongs do not make a right. It takes 2 people to have an argument and the mature person is the one who says, "I can talk to you when you are ready to speak to me with respect" and then walks away. If I walk across a room in order to restrain someone who is screaming at me, I have just added fuel to the fire.

I can care about someone without agreeing with them and I do care what happens to this family and every other family in this country because without strong families, the strength of our very country is at stake.

If we are not working towards a win/win situation, then we are all losing.

To say we don't have control of our emotions during menopause is correct. To say it leads us to the point of abusing people around us (and YES I am guilty of this) is a copout. Period. WE DO have control over what we allow to come out of our mouths REGARDLESS of how we feel inside. To hurt another human being verbally is a CHOICE, just like laying your hands on another is a CHOICE. Do I always win at keeping my mouth shut? Heck no! I'm a perimenopausal woman who feels most days like she is going crazy but I WILL take responsibilities for my actions! I expect my husband to do the same. Not something he always does. It IS hard when one partner does not take responsibility for their actions but I am learning not to take the buff. I am learning to leave his actions where they belong....with him. Devoted, if we have offended you I am sorry. I DO believe this forum got out of hand in the light of a new day. You came to get comfort and we bashed you. Please forgive us. We women in our state of minds right now can be a little confronting. Most of us are running in simply a self preservation mode and it takes nothing to ruffel our flock of feathers. I really do think we mean well even if it does not come across that way.

Devoted seems to want a good relationship with his wife. It was obvious to some of us that his behavior in restraining his wife was unacceptable and will NOT foster a good relationship with his wife. We are trying to help him. How is it "bashing" him to point out that restraining his wife will not foster a good relationship with his wife, but will instead escalate conflict and damage trust? Sometimes the truth is difficult to hear, but the truth brings growth and healing--"the truth will set you free."

His wife's behavior was abusive as well. I think they could both benefit from marriage counseling. It can help a couple learn positive ways to communicate and express emotions. It can help a couple learn to deal with conflict in mature and productive ways.

I very much support the men's right to come here and express themselves and ask for advice. Posters here also have the right to comment or offer advice or their opinion.

No need to get defensive, since my post wasn't specifically directed at you and I never told you to 'get a grip'. My point is that every time a guy posts *on the thread that is FOR MEN*, seeking answers as he truly tries to understand his wife, inevitably it turns into angry responses from women and comes across as man-bashing, which, quite frankly, I'm weary of. It seems these days it's quite alright for women to bash men with impunity, and for TV shows and commercials to portray them as bumbling oafs who can't think their way out of a paper bag and need the always-smarter woman to solve their problems in a condescending way. But let a man say one thing negative about women, even if true, and the there is no end to the attacks and accusations made.

We are not being helpful by getting indignant and passing harsh judgment when we have no idea how bad his wife is on a day-to-day basis. And I don't happen to agree that a bear hug was violent or abusive in this particular situation. IMO, that term has become so broadly defined as to be utterly ridiculous. And even experts agree that constant emotional and verbal abuse can be even more detrimental in the long term. And even now, with children who have behavior disorders and get wildly out of control to the point of being a danger to themselves and others, a common practice is to use a 'bear hug' and hold them calmly on your lap until they regain control.

His wife was threatening him and baiting him and acting like a child. His response of a 'bear hug' did not hurt her and served to stop her out of control behavior. I understand that you may consider it abusive and you have the right to your opinion, but many others would not agree and we need to be careful about leveling such serious charges at someone when the consequences can be so devastating, such as arrest and having a permanent record. Trumped-up charges of abuse have caused much grief and suffering to people who were not truly abusive, I have seen it happen many times. The whole context needs to be understood, and if we have not seen the alleged abuse take place, we need be cautious about defining it as such.

I knew I was taking a risk by speaking up. All I'm saying is that we women need to let the men have their safe place to seeks answers. If they ask for opinions from us, then certainly we should give them, but in a compassionate, constructive manner. Let's brainstorm and help him come up with various ideas on how to best handle things in a kind way, like we do with each other (most of the time ) and leave the harsh judgments out of it. He should be applauded for taking his time to try to understand his wife.

I think this thread started to become combative when some people were "judgmental" about the honest and heartfelt advice some of us offered.

Hi Sariah

I wasn't being defensive as such but I dont think it's acceptable to be told to 'get a grip' when a person posts with their opinions, it's rude. It wasn't you who said it and I apologise if my post offended you. I agree that men should come here for support and Devoted knows that I've been very supportive of him. He will tell you that himself. However, as I've stated many times I do not condone abuse from either a woman or a man.

I figured I was going to get some heat for me post last night.

Ladybugs, you post today was excellent.

Bev, I know where you are coming from and understand why you feel as you do. And in theory you are absolutely correct.

Gez, perhaps you misunderstood me a little. I think that in any normal relationship, people can push each other too far during an argument. Usually after being married for years, we know exactly which buttons to push in order to garner a reaction. I am not saying what Devoted did was necessarily right, but he is human, and people can only be pushed so far. Peri or not, she IS responsible for her own actions and her own words. In a perfect world these situations would never come to pass...... I am sorry EP, that you were ever in an abusive relationship and it does explain your very strong reaction to this thread. But I am looking at it from the point of view that this particular relationship was never abusive, and this was a single incident. After many years of being married it is unlikely that it ever would escalate into one either.

I realize we all react to what we read differently. Our life experience is going to dictate how we see a situation. I haven't been in a truly physically abusive relationship, but I have been in a verbal, emotional & mentally abusive one. So my interpretation of this situation is from the other side. I have been pushed over the edge by words, and words can hurt...badly.

I completely agree, greenie, and I'm wondering if our forthrightness was misconstrued as hateful and unsupportive, when that is furthest from the truth.

Yes, I think that may be the case!