Hi gals:

I am looking for some perspective here that I'm sure I'll get from you folks. Probably too lengthy for some to read, but if you're bored and you read it and have input, I'd appreciate it. If not, maybe it'll be therapuetic to write it all down here.

Planning my daughter's wedding still (on a shoestring). The future mil, to my daughter. OMG!!! The woman is crazy, that's all I can say, she's just nuts.

Ok first off, my daughter and her fiance', high school sweethearts. They are now 20 and 21 respectively. Yes, young to be getting married, and yes I've stood toe to toe on that issue, but lost the battle. So towards a wedding we march. They are *relatively* mature/well-adjusted, for the most part, young adults.

The guy, for whatever his reasons, ever since he came on the scene a number of years back, he has been a fixture in our household. He has long since ingratiated himself into our world and we think a lot of him. He is here, A LOT MORE than he is anywhere else. Has been the case since they began seeing one another. They are both homebodies, and so they spend the majority of their time, with us, family time. For whatever the reasons are, this home and it's comfort level, obviously suits them more than the other parent's home. They spend precious little time with his folks (he still lives at home with his mom and stepdad) as does my daughter, still live at home with her bio mom and bio dad.

So, a few issues going on here. The first one is this. I had asked his mother way back when (in planning this wedding) what she thought might be a head-count for her side of the family <friends>. She told me "oh gosh, 45 at the very most". That's the word I got from her. I'd heard that from the kids also, but wanted to verify same with her, before I went forth with things like talking to a caterer, looking at venues and capacity thereof, ordering invitations, etc. That was back in July of this year. I told her at the time, that if she'd like to begin gathering names/addy's, that obviously I don't need it yet (wedding is in March of 09), that I'd appreciate it, just whenever, if she could go ahed and begin to get that together.

In that same conversation I related to her where the bridesmaid dresses were to be ordered, and that I'd been told by the dress shop that September would be a good time to order the dress (she has a stepdaughter, teenager, who was slated to be in the wedding). Told her that you just go to so and so dress shop and tell em the name of the bride, they'll have the information there as to what dress has been selected. That conversation also, at the same time, back in July.

I had asked her also, in the same conversation if she could maybe gather some pictures of her son, thru his growing up years. I was gonna have done what is known as a video montage, these two as they grow up, their babyhood/childhood, etc., growing up years, and then culminating in pics of them together in the dating years, and so forth. So I had asked her if she'd mind gathering some pics of him as a baby/young child, etc.

Now bear in mind, that phone call, that I finally reached her, to discuss those several items, took 4 days to reach her. She lives less than 5 miles from me. But everytime I called her dh, would tell me she has a headache, she's laying down, her stomach hurts, she isn't here, she's busy. That went on over 4 days, 4 different attempts. Until I finally asked her dh (who is the groom's stepfather) tactfully I asked, *did you give her the message that I called, because I really do need to talk to her about some of the wedding stuff*. He apologized, said that he did forget the initial message, but that he would remind her when she got home. She finally did call me. And the above is what dialogue occured.

Some of you might be wondering if I've ever even laid eyes on the woman or spoke to her before at all. Yes. We went to his house (his parents house) for a specific bday invite for the son. The woman and her husband, were so ........... what I'd call .......... just rude. Now remember, we'd been invited there for a bday for their son. They have (the groom's bio mom and stepdad) a baby g'son from the teenage daughter. They are, of course, all enamored with the baby. Their entire time that we were there, was spent in the back (both the mother and the stepfather) playing with the baby. They failed to get any food ready. They didn't really socialize with us. You talk about uncomfortable. One of those awkward times when you wish you could just find some excuse to leave. We felt *not wanted* there. The finally got the food ready and then just left it on the table, no instruction, no apologies, and were in the back again, playing with the baby. Do we help ourselves? Do we wait?, what do we do? I won't belabor all that, but that's just one example of the times I've been around "his" family. The whole experience, very much less than desireable.

We've also had them join us for my daughter's bday, at a restaurant on a couple of occasions. So I've been around them in those settings also. We don't really have a whole lot to talk about surprisingly enough. We are just WAY different people.

We had a high-school graduation party a few years back when they both graduated from high school, for both of them, hosted here. His entire extended family in attendance. I love his maternal g'parents (that live here) they are wonderful, very social. But the rest of them. I don't know what to say. It's pretty apparent they don't care for us, or maybe are just inept at social graces, I don't know. So be it.

So that's a little b'ground there on it all.

We talked again in August, as I'd finally found a dress for myself (an experience in torture for a confirmed blue jean/t-shirt kinda gal, such as myself). I wanted to give her kind of a heads up on the color I'd chosen, the length of the dress, the order of the day as they say. Just called her, to make friendly conversation and discuss with her what an ordeal it had been (and it had been one, like none I've experienced) to find a dress. She said that well she'd like to loose some weight first before she looks for a dress, we talked, some, chit chat, as best we could. But I'd done my deal, given her the information that I needed to give her. She asked me about how many I thought might be in attendance for the rehearsal dinner, and gave her a count. She mentioned that they'd discussed an italian restaurant, a specific one she named (a fairly nice place) and I complimented her choice, thought that'd be a great selection. I asked her again, if she'd had any luck gathering up names/addy's, baby pictures, etc. She said no, that she needed to get on that, would do so. We finished our conversation, that was that.

Mind you, any dialogue that has occured has been at my behest. She doesn't call me, ever. And the kids, rarely go in that direction, As it's been told to me *we just don't feel very welcome over there, they don't talk to us, they never ask how was your day, how's the wedding plans going, they just don't talk over there. And as I said, any dialogue that has taken place has been at my initiation.

So then September rolls around, time to, per the dress shop, order the bridesmaid dresses (and yes we're aware that the dress shop puts that early a deadline, only because some will drag their feet, they can - even if someone waits til the very last minute, I'm sure, have a dress delivered in real short order, but the guideline we'd been given was that September would be a good date to order the dresses). I ordered the bride's little sister's dress. I asked my daughter, if the stepsister over there was on it, were they getting their dress ordered. She didn't know, but said she'd check with them. Over the weeks of September it became like pulling teeth to get that done. Never did get done. The stepdaughter (doesn't live with the groom's mother and her bio dad there in that household), .......... cannot stand either of them. She's a teenage mom, and yes, she probably does party too much for someone who is a mom, ......... and that causes much consternation in the relationship. As the groom's mother (which is this girl's stepmother) and the bio dad, ........ hold her feet to the fire on what it is she should be doing with regard to this son she has now brought into the world. Suffice it to say, not a good relationship there. Trying to get that woman (the groom's mother, which is this girls' stepmother) and the girl (the teenage mom, which is the stepsister to the groom) trying to get them on the same page, and in a car, to go to the dress shop to order a dress, was simply not going to happen. As my daughter said "mom it's like I hae to be a negotiator with the United Nations to get these two on the same page, I'm not a social worker, I can't heal their family rifts, .......... the mom has offered to buy the dress, but she will not hand the daughter a check or a credit card to do it, because she claims the daughter has mis-used funds given to her in the past, so the daughter is gonna have to get in the car with the mother to go make this happen and she won't do it, .......... I've offered to take the check/credit card myself, and take the girl and go get this done, but the girl keeps making excuses". So my daughter ultimately relieved the stepdaughter of her responsibility as a bridesmaid in the wedding and found someone else to do the honor. That took the whole month of September to come to that conclusion.

In that mother's defense, ......... she ultimately bought and paid for, by having given my daughter a check to take to the dress shop, the dress for the individual my daughter found as a replacement at the 9th hour. The mother having said to my daughter *well it's not your fault that you had to lay this in somebody else's lap to now go find a dress to wear to your wedding, I was gonna pay for her dress if she'd just cooperate, but she wouldn't, so here's a check, you can use it to pay for whoever you get to be a bridesmaid, now that _____________ isn't in the wedding any longer". So that was very gracious of her, if I do say so myself.

So then, in October. I called her, the mother. At this point, I really did need her to put pen to paper, and get me that list of names and addys. As explained to her, my mother (who has the best handwriting of anybody I know) had agreed to do the addressing for me, but she had asked, if I could go ahead and get it to her, as soon as possible, .......... maybe so she could, as she's able, thru the busy holiday season, work on them, as she could. I intend to send out invites sometime in the middle of January or so. So my mom had asked, yes she'd do them for me, but if I could, please get her the cohesive list as soon as possible, with the upcoming holiday she'd be busy enough, but if I give them to her with ample time, she'd get it done for me.

So with that in mind, I called the other mother, exlained the above, and said to her that I really would like to go ahead and get my hands on a list. She asked "when?". I said "well obviously not tomorow, I know it'll take you a few days or so, so whenever you can, just as soon as you can". That was the beginning of October.

October came and went, and yes, I was asking, of the bride and groom ( who .......... remember ........... don't frequently visit that home, they are HERE, a LOT OF THE TIME) what was up with that list, did they have any knowledge as to whether that was being generated. No but they'd check on it, they'd find out. The story I got back was that they'd been so busy (the stepfather's mother had died, about a week prior to my having laid that in their lap, the request for the names/addy's). They'd been so busy with the finalization of details of the mother's death. They were not close, this bio dad and his mother. In fact, all but estranged until the end when the woman was hospitalized and died. But the story I got was that they'd been busy with the details of finalzing things with the mother's death. But that they'd get on it, get it done.

Finally, about two weeks ago, I blew a gasket with my daughter "WHAT IS THE HOLD UP, I mean c'mon, you guys have been engaged for a year, she's known this was coming, I mean I asked her back in July but left it open ended, I asked her October and with a little more of a forthright tone, and a deadline and explanation as to why, and STILL .......... here we are two weeks into November, and I don't have it, what is the problem, will you please get to the bottom of it". Mind you the baby/child pics I'd asked for never did produce, I quit asking. Shelved the whole idea. Forget it, not worth the hassle. The dress that she was to have helped her stepdaughter obtain as a bridesmaid, never happened. And here I was ........... again ............. frustrated with something I've asked of the mother of the groom and it isn't getting done. My daughter said she'd get to the bottom of it. She did, she came and told me the list would be in my hands by the next weekend (which was last weekend) and it was. She did bring me the list. The list contained 84 souls.

The woman had been asked "how many people do you think, as a head count for your side of the family/friends". She had told me "oh 45 at the very most". I get a list, put in my hands, ............. AFTER ............ mind you, I have already chosen a venue that will not accomodate that many extra people, .......... a caterer that has a preliminary dollar number to me, based on a head count that wasn't inclusive of that many extra folks, ........... invitations ordered that don't accomodate that many extra folks.

And yes, why my daughter would bring me a list of 84 people when she herself ought to know (I am the one doing the legwork on all the planning here), that the woman has told me 45 people, there's gonna be a problem here. I don't know.

I was livid. Talk about anger/rage, as this forum entails. An understatement.

Now, going on the b'ground, is this. Holiday dinners. Every holiday that rolls around, xmas, easter, t-giving, you name it. I have, and I can put my hand on a bible and attest to same, and everybody knows it, .......... so as to lessen tensions, taken the high road and the backseat, and said to the two of them (who do not get the same lattitude with regard to "his" mother) "you guys do what you need to do, don't worry about over here, if you guys need to go in that direction, do so". They don't *so they say* either one of them *want* to go in that direction, but the mother over there, is unyielding in her request for same.
Eveytime. Her words are "don't wanna hear excuses, make it happen, we live 5 mins. apart, you guys work it out, you are expected front and center at such and such time, dont' wanna hear excuses, make it happen". That, with regard to holiday dinners. And yes, you might think * well that's just crazy, ......... what people do in that instance is pick a family, if it stresses em out (and it does) to go in both directions (he also has g'parents in town that require his presence on holiday meals) ........... then pick a family for _____________holiday and pick another family for ___________holiday. Makes perfect sense. IF .......... it's a case, that it stresses you out so, IF it's a case that you DON'T REALLY EVEN WANNA BE in that direction, then just lessen the stress, ......... don't try to be at 3 different households in one day for a holiday meal, that's crazy. Just go in that direction for ____________holiday meal, and then on such and such other holiday, go in another direction. It's that simple.

But not with her. Nope. Her words are "don't wanna hear excuses make it happen". Last xmas a perfect example. Because they'd, by then, weathered enough of these holiday fiascos, ............ they decided to go to the mother over there and present a semblance of "ok, we have too many places to be on holidays and it stresses us out, so what are you guys doing for xmas holiday meals that will require our presence?". The woman stated they'd be doing an xmas eve sorta deal because xmas had some other issue, so their ordeal would be held on xmas eve. So my daughter and her fiance' agreed to go in their direction for xmas eve, spend xmas day over here for our holiday meal. That upset my daughter, because she knew that our entire family over here was going to be going to the church for xmas service, the church they will be married in, and we had extended family in town for xmas, all would be in attendance for that xmas eve service. She wanted to be with us, but realized, she has to also placate her future dh's family. So in that direction they went.

When they got there, it was stated that the plans had changed, yes they were doing the xmas eve dinner, but they also had decided to do thus and so for xmas day also, and that they'd be expected to be there at such and such time. As my daughter told it at the time, she says that, in the interest of walking on egg shells with what will be her future in laws, and trying to be tactful, she said out loud "Gosh I just hate holidays, they are so stressful, having to be everywhere and everything to everybody, we end up spending out days off, helping prep at 3 different households, cleaning at 3 different households, on the road here and there, and full as a tick from eating too much, it's just so stressful". The woman responded "don't wanna hear excuses make it happen, we live 5 mins. apart, it's not that difficult".

So my daughter, ......... again .......... in the interest of not having hard feelings between what will be her in laws, left the plans over here in the lurch, to be in that direction (against her wishes, she didn't want to be there, nor did he) but I guess nobody wants to anger his mother, not sure. My daughter was actually pretty angry about it, and pretty vocal about it, to her future dh. Didn't do any good. She left here on xmas day vowing to be there for the shortest time she could possibly be, and then return to her home, where it is she wanted to be anyway. Ended up, (as is usually the case, another problem they have with being over there) they fly by the seat of their pants and there seems to be no organization to holiday meals. Ended up taking all day. My daughter didn't get back to her home, which is where she wanted to be, until almost dark, she'd missed almost the entire day here, and it's festivities with "her" family which had come in from out of town. She was in tears by the time she returned, and vowed this was gonna stop, she was not gonna spend another holiday like this.

So fast forward to t-giving of this year. I asked my daughter a week or so before t-giving what their plans would be. She said "I don't know, I want to be here, but I gotta see what they're doing over there". I said "well let me know". She said she would.

So the very same night she brought me that list which was double the amount the woman had given me as a headcount, ............ she also announced with some trepidation "oh, ......... and I guess they are serving t-giving over there about 1 or 2, so we have to be over there". I said "oh, ........... I didn't know that I needed to lay down a gauntlet of a time frame in order to have your presence at my holiday dinner table". She said "well, they spoke up first, but you know how it goes over there, don't make excuses, make it happen, ........... we'll try to get back here as soon as we can, but you know how it goes".

Of course, I was already fuming mad at this point, by having been given a list, that I had to absolutely get ugly at this point to get. By the fact that everything I've asked for, the woman hasn't done. And now, yet another holiday meal, I can just take a backseat, whatever I have going on over here, ......... inconsequential, ........... take a backseat, and let "her", that mother, run roughshod over what the plans may be, by her statement of "don't wanna hear excuses make it happen". I was absolutely, ............ I don't know when I've been that mad. I think I just reached the boiling point.

I slept on it, but the next day I told my daughter "you will get with his mom before this day is out, with that list in hand, and she will trim it to the 45 people she told me, or she will get every bit of the planning for this wedding, in a box and on her driveway, she can have at it, I am done tryiin to work with that dumb bitch". And that's just what I said. "I have had it with her, ........... everything I've asked for, she hasn't done, every conversation that has ensued, has been at my initiation, I'm over it with her, and then for her to dig in her heels and insist that every holiday be at her table, and I and my plans over here can just go to hell, because she's all about *don't wanna hear excuses, make it happen,*, I have, everytime, taken the high road and the backseat, and let her run roughshof over holiday plans, .......... now she has pissed me off royally, you will have that list back in her hand, and before the sun sets on midnight, with an explanation that she told me a head-count of 45 and by damn she better trim it and make it happen, she hasn't so much as called me with concern *oh gee, ya know I told you 45 but I have a problem here, this list is 84 people long* what the hell is wrong with her, that she can't pick up the phone and talk to me, offer to provide add'l funds if necessary to accomodate these extra folks, ........... not that it would be an option anyway, the invitations have been ordered, the caterer paid, the venue selected, and it won't accomodate what was planned to be a relatively small event, but what the hell is wrong with that woman, she can get it done, and she can get it done by next Saturday and back to me, I am done with her crap".

That night my daughter and her fiance' went to the household, gave the list to the mother to trim down. And here is what came to me in the way of dialogue via my daughter.

"Well she says that she talked to you and told you there'd be a number of folks that wouldn't be coming, but if she didn't at least put an invitation in their hands, ..... her name would be mud, but that about half of those people wont' come anyway". I said "well then what is done for those folks, if you know they won't come, you order announcements, but if the dumb ass would open up a book of etiquette she might learn that little tidbit, ........... but for her to have the audacity to send that over here, ......... without any communication, when she has to know she told me 45 at the very most, that's just not acceptable, I have planned accordingly and she wouldn't know that since she doesn't communicate with me, unless I pull teeth trying to get something from her, ........ she can trim the list down to the 45 folks she told me however she sees fit, and have it back to me by Saturday or she's gonna get it all in a cardboard box, she wants to be all about *dont' wanna hear excuses, make it happen* she's about to get to eat those words, I've had it with her".

My daughter then says this.

"she wants to know if she needs to trim his g'parents from the list". His gparents that live here in town, and practically raised him, he is terribly close to his g'parents. That was a low blow at how "unreasonable that mother of the bride is being", that they'd even have to consider at this point, trimming the people who he is closest to in the world.

I responded "I am not in the business of trimming her list that's up to her, she can trim it how she sees fit, she told me 45 ........... if she'd of done what I asked her way back in July and began to put pen to paper, maybe at that juncture before things had been settled, she'd of communicated to me, that there will be more than the 45 originally estimated for, but no, the only time she's done any damn thing with regard to any of this, is when I dig in my heels, and just the whole thing, has me so incensed I cannot even see straight anymore, especially when you throw in that they are now going to foul up yet another holiday meal for me, I've taken the high road and tried to be tactful and stay out of the frey with it all, well how bout I dig in my heels at this point, and make the same statement with regard to the holdiay meals (dont' make xcuses, make it happen, you are expected front and damn center at such and such o'clock) then what, ........ I'm over it with that dumb idiot".

My daughter then says this, with some sadness in her tone:

"His mother says she wishes she could've been a part of things that were being planned, she'd of liked to go look at dresses, go help pick out invitations, go look at venues, talk to caterers".

I blew a cork.

Said to my daughter "don't hand me that horse crap, .............. the woman has been asked to do 3 things in all of this, and she hasn't done not one single one of them, without my pulling teeth to get it, .......... did she EVER pick up the phone to express to me that she'd like to be included in any of the above, no she didn't, ......... better yet did she ever express TO YOU, her future dil, that she'd like to be included in some of the planning, ............... ".

My daughter responded "no, she says she didn't wanna step on any toes".

I said "well I'm not a mind reader, and if you want my opinion, if she'd spend anytime at all cultivating a relationship with what will be her future dil, she might not have felt uncomfortable and as if she was stepping on toes, .............. but no, as you've told me I don't know how many times, you guys don't ever go in that direction, ...... because you feel unwanted there, they don't talk to you, they make it apparent they wish you guys were elsewhere, and not in their hair, ........... there's no conversation, they are disinterested in your worlds, never ask about your work, about the wedding plans, ............. but here she wants to pull that sanctimonious crap, she can kiss my ______________, I've had it with her, up to my eyeballs". Went on to tell my daughter, that the woman doesn't give one iota where they are 360 other days of the year, as long as they aren't in her hair, but by God, let a holiday meal roll around and she doesn't care if it hairlips the devil, .......... they better be there, I'm done with taking the high road.

I as so furious. I mean it. I don't know when anybody has brought me to that level of anger.

Later that day, her future dh was here. Daughter was sad, because of the tension in the air, because t-giving would be in a few days, and yet again, they were expected front and center, which she knew would mean forgoing a holiday meal with "her" extended family. She expressed same to her future dh. He sat, saying nothing, no response.

If he has any shortcomings, it's lack of backbone. He is a "yes man". The path of least resistance is the one he'll take without fail.

She expressed same again, that she didn't want to go in that direction, that she didn't know why his mother has to be such a hardass about holidays, ......... that she wants to be with her family but can't ever be, because his mother is all about "don't want excuses, make it happen". He said nothing, no response, just sat watching tv. Almost as if she wasn't talking. She finally got angry at his lack of any response and yelled at him. To which he responded "I don't gie a rat's ass, we'll do whatever you want, I don't care". Which demonstrates that he is willing to "make himself look good" by not being part of the problem, but part of the solution, but in all actuality she knows it, we know it, if he tells his mother no, that it simply doesn't work them, to be in 3 different places on holidays that ............ it'll hit the fan in that household, and he knows it, so he makes himself look good by saying those words, but we all know he has a lack of backbone and is in no way shape/form gonna go to his mother with any of it. They are expected front and center and by damn that's what'll happen,or it'll get ugly over there. So he responded "I don't give a rat's ass, I'll do whatever". To which she got angry, because she knows, we all do, that he does ........ care ........ and he cares enough that he will make everybody in the world angry, except his mother and on holiday meals. She stormed off saying some choice things to him.

At that point, because I'd had all I was gonna take, I blasted him. My words to him "Let me tell you something I've had about all I'm gonna take out of your mother, she is being selfish and rude, .......... every single holiday screw the plans in this household, she never ever asks if that works for you guys, for whatever might be going on in this household and what your wants might be, what her familiy's wants might be, ........... nope, it's all about her, but 360 days of the rest of the year by God be anywhere but there, in her hair, ........ she doesnt' give a crap what's going on your worlds, but by God on holidays you better make it happen, and I have taken it and taken it til I'm up to my eyeballs with it all, ............ and this crap of sending over here a list that has double what she told me would be her headcount and she doesn't even have the damn decency to call me and discuss it, anything I've gotten from the woman, which has been zip by the way, I've gotten by pullng teeth to get it, and then she wants to pull that woe with me horse crap about nobody asked me to be a part of any thing, well she never asked, just like she's never asked what works for holiday meals, just like she's never asked about wedding plans, about your day, how'd your day go, she doesn't give a crap, but by God when it comes to what she wants, which is your prsence at her holiday meals, you better jump thru hoops to make it happen, ........ and screw what works for anybody else, I have had it with her and I've taken all I'm gonna take ........... what if I dig in my heels on this specific holiday and tell you guys *nope, doesn't work for me, don't make excuses, ....... make it happen, like she does you guys, ........ what if I show my backside this time, ............. now what?, somebody's gonna get disappointed aren't they, well I'm tired of being the one consistently disappointed with my daughter stressed out on holidays and never present with extended family because of HER demands".

He said "well call her then". I actually yelled at him, for the first time ever "SHE IS NOT MY MOTHER, SHE IS YOUR MOTHER AND SHE IS BEING UNREASONABLE, THIS IS YOURS TO ADDRESS". And I stormed off.

My husband was sitting there, he who is usually if he thinks I am wrong, real quick to let me know, in front of whoever is there. Sat there stunned. Looking at the future dh with a look of "oh man, you have done it now, she is really really mad".

The future dh left not long after that. Not angry, not hostile, said nothing more. Just left. I guess he told his future wife (my daughter) at some point that he doesn't appreciate me talking that way about his mother and asked her to ask me, not to talk that way in his presence about his mother. I told my daughter "This is my house, and I will say what I want in the confines of my own home, I don't think either one of you are properly gauging just how angry I am at the woman, .......... when I say I've had it, I mean it, I have had all I'm gonna take out of her, I have had it, ............ she wants to pull that sanctimonious woe with me crap, and nobody asked her to be a part of things, well hell she hasn't done what it is that HAS BEEN ASKED OF HER, ....... and then she wants to consistently foul up my holiday plans and nobody stands up to her and her demands, this is my house and I am angry, and I will say what I please, in the confines of my own home, if he doesn't like what's being said, he can get up and leave".

My daughter said "he did, the other day when you did that, he left". I said "good, and he can continue to do the same, if he doesn't pay the bills here, ....... if it's his home and I'm saying things I don't like then I have the good sense to shut up, but this is my home, and if he doesn't like it he can do it again, and agan and again, he can leave".

She said "well he's mad at you". I said "good, I'm mad enough for the both of us".

As it turned out with regard to the holiday meal, ............. my daughter announced that she'd be spending t-giving with her family, he with his. When her dad asked of her (I didn't ask, at that point I was so over it, I was ready to throw the turkey in the trash can and go see a movie for the day, just screw the whole thing) ........... her dad asked "aww, how come?". She said "well his mom says she wants to see him, and I want to be with my family, so I'm staying here, and he's staying there". She was here for the day and by all indications as happy as she could be to be here, enjoyed herself thoroughly, and said so, so many times.

He, ............ he was over here about noon, to visit for a while. Left to go eat with his family and was back, about 3 or so, spent the remainder of the afternoon here, and then they both left to go over there about 6 or so. They were both back here in no time at all. I think they must've spent 30 mins. over there visiting, and then they were both back here. They left shortly after to go see a movie, and then were back here again, ........... for the remainder of the evening. So whatever she hoped to accomplish, ........... maybe she had him at her holiday dinner, ......... and maybe that's what she wanted, and it was all okay with her. But I've had it with the woman.

Now I could see that if I'm the one making demands on their time, all the time, then I'm in the wrong. But that is not the case, and all involved admit same. But she fails to do the same. And it infuriates me. And nobody seems willing to address her on it. I am not willing to, because, in the end, it is UP TO THEM, ........ they are grown up enough to get maried (ostensibly) so be grown up enough to either placate the woman and stress yourself out doing so, or stand up to her and tell her it simply does not work, but that thus and so does work for you, and that's what your'e willing to do and make it happen. It is not mine to call and handle for them.

I did get the list back over the holiday here, trimmed down to the 45 I'd asked for. And so will be working on that and combing it with mine.

Word has it now that the rehearsal dinner will not be at that *on the order of a fairly nice* restaurant, but in their b'yard with tents errected and bque brought in from a local vendor. No they don't live in some scenic area. Their house is a humble one, as is mine .......... and their b'yard is a chain link fence, bordering another house behind em. They have two nuisance dogs that are their babies, and not likely to be put away, dogs that beg for food, and slobber on ya, but they are their babies, and they are likely to be front and center for same. Not at all what my idea would be for a rehearsal dinner, but again, that is not my responsibility nor my domain to handle. I don't like it one iota, but it's not mine to handle. The bride and groom are begrudgingly okay with that as arrangement, and so be it. If they're okay, then I have to back up, which is precisely what i've done.

Now I ask, any who've taken the time to read thru this whole diatribe, ............ what in any of this, have our outsepped my boundaires here? Those of you who've weathered this? Those of you who have sons who have married? Those of you who have input. I'd like to see what some other folks have to say about all this.

Wow, you certainly do have a challenge in dealing with the future in-laws! I think you are right on, and that you are a voice of reason in all this.

Personally, I've always felt that it is up to the couple getting married to plan the wedding. I realize for some people it is tradition to have the mothers involved in planning. But in my opinion the wedding is for the couple, and they should be able to invite who they want, have the venues they want, have the food they want, etc. If your daughter and her fiance are old enough to be on their own, get married, and fend for themselves in this world--which at their age they are, technically speaking--then they are old enough to plan their own wedding.

If you want to "help" and your daughter and her fiance want the help, that's great! But maybe you should put the responsibility on them to solve these problems. They should be able to cut down the invite list, and invite who they want. They should be able to get the photos. This would be a good opportunity for them to learn about "boundaries" with parents, as they will need boundaries as a married couple or else they will have even bigger problems down the road! Have they done any premarital counseling? If not, they should.

For the holidays, they should decide as a couple what they want to do. Then they will need to be firm with the families about their plans.

I hope that helps. Good luck!

P.S. For our wedding, hubby's parents paid for the groom's dinner, but we planned it. My mother had an idea for the reception venue and payed for part of it. That's it!

No, and yes they probably could use some pre-marital counseling. I've advised same. They are to meet with the pastor a few times, for a session or two of the same, has't transpired as of this point. But I have told them these are some of the issues that will arise and they need to get some input from a 3rd disinterested party and take heed, what it is that's said to them.

There in lies the problem with regard to holidays. I know just from hearing the verbalization on same, that holidays for them, are so stressful, being pulled in different directions. According to what I've heard them vocalize, both of them, their preference is to be "here", in this home. Heck, that's always their preference, to be "here" in this home (they are confirmed homebodies, family oriented, both of them, full-tilt). They, neither one, "want" to go in the direction of his family, ............ but they realize they have a responsibility to do so. They can't shun his family "all the time". That isn't fair to the people who love him. They realize that.

But by the same token they can't always, because she digs in her heels, ......... placate "her" and her wants (the mother of the groom) w/regard to holiday meals. The problem *as I see it* is that the groom, is a "yes man" as I've described. He's young at this point, and maybe life's bumps and bruises will harden some of that. But as things stand right now, he can be counted on, almost always, without fail, with regard to ANY situation, to take the path of least resistance. Hates confrontation and discord, at any cost. He'll bend over b'wards, every single time, w/out fail, even to his own demise, to placate and keep peace. In the process, he has to make a decision, either make his future bride angry ........... or make his mother angry. Hmm?, which one? Which one to make angry? Tough dilemma. Maybe some of that pre-marital counseling with the pastor can address some of those issues, sure hope so.

As to the wedding planning, .......... that has, for all practical purposes, been put in my lap, willingly ........... at least at first. I am still on board to do the planning and to my daughter's credit, she has been very agreeable to whatever the plans have been. She's not, in any sense, any kind of a bridezilla. So the most of it, is on me, to plan and coordinate. And I'm doing so. Hard though, to get a cohesive list together for the wedding invitees ....... when ......... at least part of that list is to include "his" side of the family and "his" mother is so uncooperative. And yes, we'd divided it up pretty equitably. Was to be a total of approximately 110 folks. That totals about 36 folks for each party, the bride and groom get to choose 36. The bride's parents get to choose 36 and the groom's parents get to choose 36. If any of those parties don't want all 36 of their choice, then they can give up their remaining persons ........ divy them up accordingly. The bride and groom only had about 20 folks they wanted included, so that left 16 more that somebody else could have. They gave theirs to his side, since I didn't have that many to invite myself as the bride's family. I took a few of their extras ............. to include a few more folks on my list, ........ but gave the bulk of their extra to his family. So as she'd not have to cut her's from the 84 she'd given me (which was already over and above the 45 she'd been allowed) ............. She was allowed even more than the 36 allotted. But not 84 for crying out loud. And then to claim "oh well they won't come, half of em aren't coming anyway". WTH? You don't put an invitation in somebody's hands, and "expect" they won't come anyway. Especially when you aren't the one footing the bill for these extra folks. They just might decide to come. The venue has been chosen, and it won't even accomodate more than 120 people, period. And the list is already at 110.

WHAT IF THOSE FOLKS she had as extras "had chosen" to come? Then what? And the lack of any dialogue forthcoming from the woman. WTH?

Uggggh. With regard to the whole rehearsal dinner thing. Again, an arena where I just have to shut my pie hole, and I do so. The father, the bio father and the bio mother are divorced. The bio dad lives in another state. He's a real playboy. He takes exotic vacations to tropical/carribbean locales every few mos. (so he can strut his *oh so fine* body up an down the beach, or so he thinks of the oh so fine body). Has a motorcycle, has a boat, has a lake place, has 4-wheelers, takes wonderful vacations every few mos. But anytime the kids have gone to see him .......... every meal is eaten out, and they are expected to pay their own way. They once went (this as high school kids at the time) to join he and the extended family on that end, for a beach vacation at a rented condo. The man held his hand out, for "their portion" of the expense of the rented beach condo. THIS FOR HIGH SCHOOL KIDS. Big huge condo, on the ocean, rented and shared by about 4 different contingents of extended family on that end. My daughter and her b'friend (at the time, they were b'friend/g'friend) invited to join them. When they got there, the hand was out, for "their share" of the expense of the rented condo. The guy, according to reports I've heard, never consistently paid child support through the years to the mother. And as I said, anytime they've gone to visit where he resides, every meal is in a restaurant and they are expected to pay themselves, their own way, been that way all along. That's another arena where they need some pre-marital counseling. The groom to be, of course, thinks his father hung the moon. The bride to be, cannot stand the man, and will no longer even cross the street to see the guy, much less take up her time and financial resources to go travel to another state to see him.

To each their own. That's not the way our household has been run. We aren't of means to have all the toys and provide for our kids too. So be it. Each chooses to run their lives the way they see fit. That guy, the bio dad, I guess ........ chooses his life in the way he chooses, spend his money on toys and wonderful vacations and the son .......... too bad. No money forthcoming for anything, ever, that's been the story of the son's life ........ from the playboy dad. Hard for me to abide by, but I can step aside and realize that folks do things the way they see fit. He might think I'm crazy, to pay for a wedding, the way he does his life. He'd likely think *they wanna get married, then let them save and pay for*. So be it. So I keep out of that discussion.

So no, the mother here, reports that the father in another state has been consulted as to the rehearsal dinner, and what, if anything he intends to contribute. The answer was "I'll have to see what I can do, but don't count on me for much". The mother's translation, as related to my daughter on same, was this "I know the man, that means he won't be writing a check for zip".

OY VEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WOW!! I don't even know what to say, except that I can't wait to see what happens at Christmas, let alone the actual wedding! BTW, what happens when your DD and SIL have children? I agree with Greenie - they really need to attend premarital counseling in order to learn how to deal with (or avoid, altogether) future situations like this.

Hang in there, Doaker! As they say, the wedding is the easy part... it's the marriage that takes all the work!

Many (((big hugs))) to you!!!!

gyz


Keep us posted on the latest happenings with the wedding planning, future MIL and all!!