I read and heard that soy has estrogen (plant based) in it, and they don't
advise you to over do it with Soy, especially after the age of 60-65

I had heard that before, but my girlfriend told me about that too.........................................

Soy has phytoestrogens, true. But I really don't know how much is too much when it comes to "overdo" it.

But I do know that there is an estrogenic effect on men, when eaten in large amounts. Again, I don't know what constitutes large amounts. My husband is an amateur bodybuilder for his hobby. His trainer said that there are university studies published in exercise physiology journals that show that soy causes symptoms of feminization in adult men, such as loss of muscle mass, decreased sperm count, gynecomastia (they grow breasts), lethargy and depression.

Needless to say, there is no soy, soy products, or soybean oil in my kitchen.

It seems that soy overdose is much more dangerous for men than it is for women.

I thought phytoestrogens (such as those in soy) were thousands of times weaker than Estradiol and that they bound with the estrogen receptors, blocking them to stronger forms of estrogen. However I haven't read any of this stuff recently so can't speak with that much authority. I take phytoestrogens (Estroven and red clover) as well as using estriol cream vaginally. I've had no signs of increased estrogen levels at all (except were it's intended in the case of the estriol cream). For example I haven't experienced tender breasts or spotting (I'm post-menopausal now I think). If anything I think I could probably do with a bit more estrogen but am contraindicated for it.

Soy should also be avoided by people who are hypothyroid. It counters the effects of the necessary medication.

Same with walnuts.

JJ

I've eaten a couple of Revival soy bars every day now for years. It's one of my main sources of protein since I'm a vegetarian, so I don't know what I'd eat if I didn't have it. I never felt better. My husband has a Revival shake every morning, and he is more lean and mean now than he ever was, with no sign of breasts. If he ever even had "breasts," which is just excess adipose tissue in men, they are definitely gone since he's lost a lot of weight and his chest is completely flat.

I read the same info as Interactive, that phytoestrogens are thousands of times weaker than Estradiol, and by binding with estrogen receptors, they actually work against harmful effects of estrogen. Many people misunderstand soy's effects and how it works.

Obviously, One shake a day seems to be OK for him. Like I said in my post above, what, EXACTLY constitutes the daily consumption of soy that would cause feminization in men, that I can't seem to find out.

Was it 2 shakes a day, 10 shakes a day? I'm sure these studies were conducted with megadoses of soy, but all they seem to say is that soy is bad for men. Is this an urban legend, or has anyone else heard of this? If you Google "Soy and Men" you will see that soy is accused of everything from lowering sperm count, to the more ridiculous observation that soy reduces penis size to soy makes men gay!!! I'm not kidding!!! I couldn't possibly make this stuff up!

Feeling better than I have in a year.....................


Hi girls...


I'm 51, i'll be 52 in June, stopped my periods December of last year.

I've been on Paxil (well generic now) for 13 years for panic disorder -
tried to get off it three times and three times i got suicidal after traumatic events
in my life.

Will be on meds for life, i've finally accepted that.

I was a very athletic person, never a couch potato.

Anway, the past year has been such a rollercoaster of ups and downs, but since i've been drinking vanilla soy milk mixed
with goats milk in my cereal, the past week, i've been feeling so much better, I can't explain it.

And the one tiny incident of spotting this last sunday. Just one time, when i went pee, there was a tiny, trace of blood, then that was it............
but i started to feel more myself on Friday, and today is Tuesday the 14th of Oct, and I still feel so much better. I've been going on my
fitness walks again............have more energy.........................I DON'T GET IT.

Saturday, I told my husband "I wish I could feel this good everyday" and so far, I still do!!!
Could I be 'through the tunnel???"
I wouldn't think it would all be over yet............i havent even gone a year without bleeding. ALMOST DARNIT.
I SUPPOSE YOU ALL ARE GOING TO TELL ME THAT THE TINY SPOT MEANS THAT I HAVE TO START ALL OVER AGAIN

WAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

All I can say is when I add soy to my diet (or flax which I've read can mimic estrogen too) my face breaks out-more acne than I ever had as a teenager! So there must be something to this. Just a small amount of soy and/or ground flax added to my morning yogurt is enough to cause these breakouts for me.

Glad to hear you're feeling better Erynnsmama. Hope you go from strength to strength.

Hi Interactive,
How long have you been taking the Estroven? I took it for 7 months, and my GYN's PA wanted me off of it because of the Estrogen in it. So, I quit cold turkey about 6 weeks ago. The first month I felt the same, but now I'm waking up with the anxiety stuff about 2 or 3 in the morning. I've also gained weight even though I'm exercising more.

I'm wondering if it really is harmful to keep taking Estroven, or the PA is being very conservative.

I have also thought of taking/drinking soy instead, but it seems like more of the same. Maybe the soy shakes and milk don't have has much Estrogen in them.

Any thoughts anyone?

Thanks,
WriterMom

Hello WriterMom

I've been taking Estroven for 22 months. I was directed to take it by the doctor I consulted who specialises in menopause, along with other supplements and natural progesterone cream.

Wow I didn't realise quitting Estroven could have such an effect. It's available over the counter isn't it, so I thought it couldn't be too powerful. Obviously I was wrong! I had thought the anxiety and insomnia had abated because I was using natural progesterone cream. I didn't realise the Estroven (and probably the other supplements) might be playing a significant role as well.

When I stopped taking conventional oral HRT abruptly, like you I was fine for three weeks and then started getting symptoms of rapidly depleting estrogen (quite severe symptoms in fact as the estrogen level in the HRT was quite high). I didn't realise you could get such an effect by abruptly stopping Estroven.

I see my doctor once a year now and she hasn't advised me to stop taking Estroven. I'll ask her about it at the next appointment, but I'm not due to see her for another nine months. However I feel so well I don't think I'm ever coming off it voluntarily!

Is estrogen very strictly contraindicated for you?

Hi Interactive,

Thanks for your quick reply on Estroven. I'm wondering if my PA isn't being overly concerned. My mom died of breast cancer 22 years ago when detection wasn't nearly as good as it is now. And she was 74 when she died. That puts me at a slightly higher risk (it would be much higher if she had had it at a much younger age). Except for some benign breast cysts, I have had no problems, and no cancer anywhere. I'm actually quite healthy otherwise.

I'm going to contact my regular GYN and ask her opinion. Like others in this thread, I've been feeling so much better, and now it's getting ugly again. Last night I was awake for an hour. My left arm hurt, probably from all the pushups I did in exercise class yesterday, and of course I was wondering if I had a blockage to my heart! We always think the worst.

Estroven has a natural plant estrogen in it, and soy isoflavines. I would really like to take it again.

WriterMom

Yes asking your regular GYN for her opinion sounds like a good idea. I didn't realise that some professionals considered even Estroven a bad idea if someone has a relative who died of breast cancer. I came off conventional HRT because I developed a breast lump (which turned out to be benign on investigation), developed a suspected ovarian cyst (which had probably resolved by itself by the time I got to the top of the waiting list for an ultrasound scan with our National Healthy Service!) and have two uterine fibroids. The doctor thought the estrogen in the HRT was stimulating breast, ovaries and uterus so I'm now contraindicated for systemic estrogen supplementation. However the doc I see recommended Estroven and also estriol cream to be applied vaginally for vaginal atrophy (which hit pretty rapidly once I gave up HRT!). I haven't had any physical problems since coming off HRT - no breast tenderness, abdominal discomfort or anything - so am probably OK at this level of supplementation of phytoestrogens and weak estriol vaginally. However my mother is 86 and still going strong, so I didn't have a heightened risk factor in that sense.

It seems pretty tough if you've been ordered not to take something that was helping you, especially when it's a phytoestrogen which is many times weaker than estrogen by my understanding. A second opinion from someone who's experienced seems like a very good idea.

Phytoestrogens do not work in the same way as estrogen. They are absolutely without risk. All they do is fool the estrogen receptors by blocking them so they stop screaming out to be satisfied by the real thing. I know this because I had an estrogen fuelled cancer and my acupuncturist explained the whole process to me at the beginning. She has encouraged me to use soy products in the knowlege that they would help, not harm and I trust her because she is also a gynaecologist!
janet c

Thanks for explaining that Janet.

My gyn/onc wouldn't allow me to use phytoestrogens for the first 18 months after my surgery, and he is a well respected man. It seems that many in the medical profession do not take the time to investigate how phytoestrogens work and just tell patients not to use them to cover themselves. My acupuncturist was quite emphatic from day one that I would not be at risk. I was suffering terribly - however she said she would not advise me to go against my surgeon so I did not. I was much too afraid to put anything that had the word "estrogen" contained in it into my body after having an estrogen fuelled cancer, but now I happily use it. I have my 6 month check up tomorrow by the way-I will be glad to get that over with!!!
janet c

It's been two months since I quit taking the Estroven, and the anxiety has pretty much abated. I'm not taking anything but my calcium, magnesium, D, and a multivitamin for women. I had to go on a 3-day business trip last week and had to fly, which always makes me a little nervous. But I did fine. I did wake up the second night, unable to sleep, which is typical of me in a hotel by myself. If my husband were with me, I'd have been fine. I was so anxious that night, that when it started to hit me, I immediately got up and took a Xanax. It helped and I went back to sleep. I've never traveled well by myself, even before menopause.

So, I'm doing pretty well. It is hard to lose weight, but my doctor told me I need to exercise at least 5 days a week (I've only been doing 3), and recommended the South Beach Diet. I'm working on it!

WriterMom

Hi Writer Mom:

Can I ask you why you don't wish to take estrogen - I have seen women deteriorate in many ways when they don't take estrogen - My cousin is a dermatologist and she notices a HUGE difference in the skin quality of women who take HRT or estrogen and women who don't. The women who don't take estrogen kind of deflate like a balloon - so if you are not a vain person that is fine - but you would be surprised at how much even "unvain" women don't feel too good about looking their age - AKA "looking old"

Best

Lara Falcon

Well, I'm not taking any Estrogen because I'm not having night sweats or hot flashes, I sleep well, I usually feel good. I don't have any other menopause symptoms. I have more energy because I'm not having periods any more. I don't miss them at all!

I'm very active. I work full time, work out, and do projects around my house. My skin is a little drier, but I wouldn't say I look deflated. No different than before menopause. I have a little sag under the eyes, but I'm 56, so I kind of expect this. I'm losing more hair than before, but I'm starting on extra Biotin vitamins, with my doctor's approval. I always ask him before taking anything new. I read it can take several months before I notice anything different.

My mother died of breast cancer, so I don't want to push my luck.

WriterMom

Good for you WriterMom !!

There are more important things in life than worrying about skin "deflating". How insensitive to suggest that is bound to happen without estrogen-especially to us ladies who choose not or cant take it for health reasons-in my case because I had cancer of the uterus fuelled by estrogen. I have not noticed much change in my skin since my surgery 3 years ago. I too am 56 and people tell me I look pretty good for my age and think I am in my late 40s. I am not overwight, eat a good diet and keep very fit by swimming, walking and cycling. There are more important things in life than worrying about our skin aging. It is a natural part of life and NOT that important in the scheme of things!!
If someone has reached menopause and is still worrying excessively about the inevitable consequences of aging skin then I feel sorry for her
janet c

I could not agree more Janet. If HRT would be magic beauty pill then plastic surgeons would be out of business .
I think aging is part of our existence, no amount of hormones or procedures can stop it.
I am going to be 52 and still look good for my age. A good diet ( low glycemic), exercise, and enough sleep plus a bit help from good genes, is all it takes for good skin.
I would rather be "deflated" than worry sick about getting cancer, my looks are last thing on my worry list at this point oflife, as long as I have enough energy, good night sleep, no anxiety, and I can keep my job and feel good overall, life is good!!!

Yes Irandan
It makes you wonder about the desperation some must feel if they are still making youthful looks their priority
If, as in my case you have a man that loves you REGARDLESS (we are about to celebrate our 37th wedding anniversary) and a happy family-in my case three beautiful grown up daughters with the prospect of grandchildren on the horizon, then the acceptance of growing old gracefully is a beautiful thing.
janet c

[quote name='janet c' date='Nov 4 2008, 03:30 PM' post='248903']
Good for you WriterMom !!

There are more important things in life than worrying about skin "deflating".



Dear Janet C:

Maybe to you there are "more important things in life than worrying about skin deflating" - and if that was the case we would not have women ON THIS VERY BOARD who it seems to me are TRAUMATIZED by the sudden change in their skin after menopause - I feel like every two or three days there is a new posting about wrinkles or aging of the face. I assume these women are in their late fifties - and thats when it really hits - early and mid fifties the skin can still "hold its own" so as to speak - within just three years after menopause you lose 30% of your collagen - which causes the face to sag.

I'm glad you are taking aging in stride - and yes estrogen is not for people who have cancer in their families - but according to the latest research in the Lancet magazine the jury is still out as to whether estrogen plays a big role in cancer....

Lara Falcon

"I'm glad you are taking aging in stride - and yes estrogen is not for people who have cancer in their families - but according to the latest research in the Lancet magazine the jury is still out as to whether estrogen plays a big role in cancer....

Lara Falcon"
[/quote]

Of course women become traumatized when their skin ages-I did ! I just got over it! Most of us well balanced ladies do you know! I resent your suggestion that estrogen does not play a big role in cancer. I was using an estrogen product before I was diagnosed with cancer and my surgeon told me it was probably that - that caused my cancer. My tumour was a huge lump of estrogenised cells. If you had had your life threatened by the use of a hormone then you would not be so quick to toss away the seriousness of it.
I have been looking at your past posts and with respect you seem to be very fixated on youth and looks. Maybe this is not the right board for you? Some of us ladies have been going through a hell of a time and looks are actually not their first consideration
janet c

Dear Janet:

I'm truly sorry to hear about your cancer -

Regarding me being fixated on looks/youth -you have it in reverse - its not me, its the ladies on this board who are fixated on aging and losing their looks - Just today there was a new posting on the Wrinkles topic - I have never ever ever posted anything on this board saying I am depressed about aging or worried about my looks - since you have done a bit of research on my posts you can attest to that - and FYI I don't exactly look 22 - EVERYBODY AGES - its a fact of life and for psychological health you have to accept it with humor if you can - but I do think that estrogen does help with aging - not just skin, but bones, mind and general quality of life. There are women on this very board who swear by it and would rather die than not be on it - but it is unfortunate that some women can't take it -

Again I'm sorry about being insensitive about the estrogen/cancer issue - but as I said there are rumblings out there in the gynecological world that there are other factors too besides estrogen that contribute to cancer

Wishing you well

Lara Falcon

Yeah, Janet C & Iradan, I totally agree with what you have written. I am 63 and have never taken HRT. I can't take it, not because of cancer, but because it skyrockets my hypertension to the point where I have almost been hospitalized three times. I was oestrogen dominant during peri.

LaraF...I have seen many women who have had multiple enhancements made to their aging faces, hands, breasts, etc etc. Eventually, the outcome is a woman with a plastic (pun intended) looking face that does not match the rest of their bodies especially their necks. It looks macabre, in my humble opinion. I am just happy to be post meno, feeling great, doing aerobic dance and enjoying life. It shows and people tell me that I look great.

SusanC

Quote Larafalcon

"There are women on this very board who swear by it and would rather die than not be on it "-



See that's what I mean. Were you born-insensitive or did you have to work hard to cultivate it?
Oh well it takes all sorts. I am glad you have never had anything in your life awful enough to detract from the real importance-how you look!

janet c

Janet:


Please read my lips - Estrogen is not for everyone - but it does help with quality of life issues, - Of course people WHO HAVE CONTRAINDICATIONS TO ERT SHOULD BE ADVISED NOT TO TAKE IT - Research the boards (since you are so good at doing that) and there are women on this board who would rather take HRT than not - regardless of the consequences - Unbelievable though it may seem to you.

And there is no need to be rude - its just as bad as being insensitive -


Best

Lara

Hi again Lara
You hijacked a serious thread about the dangers of estrogen and turned into an insulting discussion on "deflating skin". I don't think I am alone on this thread in feeling affronted, and if you feel that I was rude- well I think it was fair enough in this instance! If you were to research my posts you will see that it is not in my nature to be rude- so work it out! If you want to lecture the ladies about their wrinkles then do it on the appropriate threads-as you say there are enough ladies complaining about them every day.The other ladies on this thread are more concerned with different matters.
janet c

Hi Janet:

I don't know how this got to be such a "storm in a teacup" .....LOL

I just asked WriterMom why she didn't take estrogen - and she VERY POLITELY may I add, told me that her mother had cancer and so she didn't want to take it - fair enough - she also rebutted my warning about deflating skin by saying that her skin was fine and that she didn't notice any difference in it - I got the feeling that she was leading a happy busy life with no time or desire to worry about wrinkles etc, - and that is wonderful - It may surprise you to know that I feel sorry for women who are obsessed with "staying young" instead of enjoying life with family and friends. And on that note can we please please end this conversation - its getting old

Take care

Hi Lara

I agree-lets end it now.

Best wishes

janet c

I think Janet and Lara BOTH have made good points : )


It's like watching a Tennis match LOL

Well a very OLD one Its almost a year since the last post!

janet c