Hi,

I've been using a 2% natural progesterone cream for about a year now, with much success as it got rid of my hot flashes. But three weeks ago my hot flashes came back with a vengeance and I cannot understand why.

Have anyone out there had a similar experience?

Thank you, Sylvia

Hot flashes can be caused by dropping estrogen levels. I take BHRT now, estrogel and prometrium...I went off the prometrium for 5 days and found I started having hot flashes again. Apparently either hormone can cause the flashes. I have also read that you can have hot flashes from your hormones fluctuating....particularly dropping...but they can still all measure within normal ranges. So it isn't the "range" you are in that causes it, it is the amount and the speed in which they are dropping that causes the flashes.

Could be, you need some estrogen replacement.

I get hot flashes from time to time with Natural Progesterone Cream as well. It seems to go in phases. At the moment I'm not getting any but I go through other phases where they occur quite a lot. I'm not supplementing with estrogen and assumed it was my estrogen level going up and down.

I've been reading up on the work of Dr John Lee, he was the pioneer doctor that started treating women with natural progesterone. In his book he explains that natural progesterone is supposed to balance out estrogen as well. He says that any woman still getting periods should not be supplementing with estrogen; and eventually if we need to supplement with estrogen, it should be the transdermal one, and only in the slightest.

Progesterone is supposed to balance estrogen receptors by itself, hence the reason why hot flashes tend to go away once a person uses natural progesterone.

But I guess I will have my hormone levels measured and see what eventuates from there. Thank you ladies, for your comments.

Sylvia

Maybe you should stop taking the progesterone and see if you are naturally balanced. In other words.. if you were supplementing with P to balance your E and your E has now dropped then maybe you are getting too much P. Does that make sense? It's the easiest solution and I always try to do that first.

I would suggest the same,E continues to drop and progesterone tends to build up, so it causes some imbalance too.
I also believe Progesterone helps on early stages of perimenopause, alone, not so much as we get close to menopause, but every women is different.
HTH,
I.

I did stop progesterone for about 3 weeks, and that's when the flashes came back.

In fact, it's estrogen that is always present in the body, and even after we stop menstruating we still make about 40% estrogen, but progesterone pretty much drops to zero once we stop menstruating or when we do not ovulate. When this happens we actually become estrogen dominant, but because there is hardly any progesterone in our bodies, the estrogen receptors are not processing the estrogen (even thought it's still there), hence we get all sorts of symptoms, including the hot flashes. The role of progesterone is to then open up the estrogen receptors and balance them. In fact, both progesterone and estrogen receptors balance each other. This is why by using a 2% progesterone cream, I am actually replacing exactly the amount of progesterone I need per month and which my body is no longer making. At least that's the theory. It seemed to work beautifully a year ago, but now it's all out of whack. I think I may need to twick the hormones a little.

Thank you for all your feedback. Cheers, Sylvia

Sylvia, you should be answering hormone questions, not asking them!! Great knowledge, I was impressed.

However....hehehe!!...there had to be a BUT in there, huh???

Although I agree with you that your progesterone levels can and do drop off to zero as we approach and reach menopause....I don't think progesterone all by itself is the answer for menopause. It could be great in peri...if you aren't one of those who is sensitive to P, which apparently many women are...but I really feel, at least for myself, that the added Estrogen is important also. I use the estrogel, which is bio identical transdermal estrogen. However I didn't even attempt to play with hormones while I was still having periods. I didn't start my hormone replacement until I was 9 months without a period...and I was going totally insane with horrible debilitating symptoms. Within ONE HOUR of applying the estrogel the first time, I felt better...noticably better! My energy level went WAY up, after spending months with the crashing fatigue, I felt less dizzy, again after months of being dizzy every day....

I can only speak from personal experience, of course....and would not presume to say I was right....I am only right for me!

Hi Floater,

Interesting what you say, and I agree that what works for one person may not work for another. But I think the time has come for me to go and have some hormone tests to see where I'm at. I've missed my period last month, but that's happened to me before and then it comes back. Having said that, I didn't get the hot flashes before. So maybe now I'm going into full meno so it's worthwhile seeing what's going on.

Thanks for the info. I would also consider using bio estrogen if I have to. Cheers.

Totally agree with Floater about the estrogel. For a time, extra progesterone kept me under control, then added some estriol. then added some bi-est, and n ow the estradot which is like estrogel but constant little dose. Anywya, as Flaoter said, what works for each of us is different. The estrogen just makes my brain feel sharp. I guess if I could only control one issue it would be my memory or the heating pad on the back. The meds I take fix the brain, and somewhat fix the heating pad. I am sure if I were taking nothing the heating pad feeling would be like total body heat wave. My mohter was still having hot flashes at 65, and I always wondered why my grandmother had this pitcher of ice water next to her bed every night! Thanks for the genes!

I don't believe much in the genes. My mother's periods stopped at 46, without any symptoms whatsoever. No flashes, no heart palps, no nothing. I must be a mutant

I must have missed that insane comment of Dr. Lee's.

That would mean someone like me who is menstruating with a pathetic estrogen level of only 20 pg/ml at day 11 shouldn't supplement estrogen?
Give me a break! If there are any smart ladies out there they will listen to Dr. Elizabeth Vliet who correctly stated that just because a woman is menstruating,
doesn't mean she is producing enough estrogen. I'm living proof that she is correct.

Thanks for telling me what Dr. Lee thought. I wouldn't trust anything he said after reading such nonsense.
But people forget, he was trying to sell a product-- transdermal progesterone. He was not selling estrogen.

If someone can point me to proof that transdermal progesterone cream can raise BLOOD serum levels of progesterone, please give me a shout.
Thanks.



Jaguar

Progesterone was well absorbed in the systemic circulation: mean blood levels rose minimally, but statistically significantly (P = 0.001), by 0.53 ng mL(-1).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1612015...Pubmed_RVDocSum

There are many more on PubMed, just do a search on "progesterone cream".

I have been using topical progesterone for nearly 18 months. My highly irregular periods became *much* more regular. I had *far* fewer episodes of insomnia. And after picking up every illness around me and being sick every 2 or 3 months, I went an entire 16 months without illness until I finally succumbed to mycoplasma pneumonia, a difficult illness for even the strongest immune systems to fend off. The progesterone also appeared to help with hot flashes, I'd had them before starting the progesterone treatment, and had none for approx 13 months. They're back now, I believe my estrogen is dropping, I hope to have confirmation of that soon. Once confirmed, I will being supplementing with estrogen as well as progesterone. I will remain using the progesterone cream as I have had good success with it.

Dr. Lee was taking the ultra conservative stance. I think we're all well aware that estrogen can be dangerous. His advice minimizes the danger.

Jaguar, if you are menstruating, why would you need to supplement with estrogen ? What benefit are you getting from the extra estrogen ?

yes.. i always tend to wonder why those who are still menstruating are playing with their hormone levels at all.. i mean, isn't that what menopausal women need? those who are post that is, in full blown menopause.. isn't there a heightened risk of cancer, or doesn't anyone fear that? personally, i'd prefer hot flashes to cancer..... but that's just me..

Well, if your estrogen is still high enough to build up the uterine lining, but your progesterone is so low that you aren't menstruating regularly, then I can understand why a women would want to supplement progesterone. I can understand it because this is exactly what I have done. :-)

But supplementing estrogen while still menstruating ? That one doesn't quite make sense to me unless it's to relieve some of the other unpleasant symptoms. I started having hot flashes again but my estrogen still measured in the normal range. I think that level is actually low for me, I suspect I've been a high E person all of my life. But I'm very reluctant to supplement E until mine actually measures low, thinking like you do zen, that I'd rather have hot flashes than cancer. :-) But maybe I'm suffering needlessly, I've been having lots of hot flashes in the past couple of months and they are making me somewhat miserable, and maybe even if my E measures within the normal parameters I am actually low relative to my own personal normal, and maybe I can supplement E because my body tolerates, likes even, a high level.

I wish I had been tested throughout my 20's and 30's, so I could know if my theory is correct. :-/

What estrogen?
Just because you are menstruating doesn't mean you have enough estrogen. Elizabeth Vliet was certainly right about that.
My recent Day 10 estradiol level was only 12 pg/ml. I crashed last August
with no periods for 7 months. Thought I was heading to meno. Wrong. Now my periods are back with near zero progesterone
and hardly any estrogen. My body is a mess. I can hardly walk, constantly in bed. When your hormones crash, so does your body.
Actually, my life has been over ever since the "crash."
I haven't added hormones yet. Need some opinions on oral estrace.
Also-- is it true only birth control pills take over the ovaries?
I have to add hormones (I don't have any!) and need to know if I use HRT if it "adds" on to my own .


Jaguar

Birth control pills will suppress your natural hormones and replace them with the synthetic hormones in the pills. BCPs do provide some relief from peri symptoms, but IMO it's just delaying the inevitable ... eventually you're going to have to deal with your low hormones, might as well do it sooner than later.

If you use bioidentical hormones then the ones you take/apply will add to your own hormones. I think it's a great treatment for someone like you with verified low hormones. I was high on estrogen but very low on progesterone and have been using progesterone cream for now 18 months, my progesterone went back up into the normal range and better balanced my high estrogen. Now I think my estrogen is dropping, I keep testing and waiting for a low enough value to warrant supplementation. I wish estrogen were OTC, I hate that I'm going to have to find a doc willing to write a prescription. The last one offered me BCPs, I accepted the prescription but never took them. It seemed like a bandaid solution.

I take it your periods are rather light and short Mine are getting lighter and shorter.

I'm curious to know what your FSH is. Estrogen keeps FSH low, and low estrogen allows FSH to go high. I'm wondering if you are naturally a low estrogen person, not as low as you currently are but in the lower half of the normal range when you felt better, and that's how even with very low E now you are still menstruating. That range of normal is very wide, you know ! It would be interesting to know if your FSH iis high, or if the E you have is sufficient to still keep the FSH low.

Btw. I want to add my theory here that progesterone doesn't actually directly mitigate hot flashes but if used properly helps to restore a more regular and more "normal" rise and fall of all of the hormones involved in the menstrual cycle. There are at least four and they all interact, it isn't surprising that if one gets out of whack, eventually the others will too, and if you bring that one back into line the others might follow. When estrogen gets out of whack and starts rising and falling in an unusual way, you'll have hot flashes even if your estrogen isn't low. Once your estrogen does go low though, you can expect to have hot flashes no matter how much progesterone you use.

Jaguar:

I also crashed last August, and crashed hard. This was 6 months after my last period. I had no life, merely an existance...and an unpleasant existance at that. I tried anti depressants, they helped a fair bit. I used Ativan daily for a couple of months just to get me through the day!! I finally made the decision in December to take Hormones....I chose transdermal estrogen as it is a safer choice, and Prometrium. It has made a remarkable difference in my life. Not only am I back in the land of the living, I feel better than I felt for quite some time before my crash last August.

Life is too short to suffer needlessly.

Last FSH was 43. Last progesterone was 0.1 (pathetic)
Actually, before my crash, my day 4 estrogen was 60 pg/ml which is actually flagged as high on day 4. My mid cycle was running just over 100.
Then the crash hit and I was flatlined out of the blue at 20 pg/ml day 7, 10, 13 14. Yes we pulled it on all those days right when I crashed.
On day 3 of my crash I almost called 911. I must have been zero that day. I collapsed on the floor when I tried to walk and my vision was blurred all day.
I wasn't even strong enough to see the doctor until day 7. It was horrible. I think it was sudden ovarian failure. We don't just crash to such low levels like that.
So I tried the patch which was a disaster with side effects starting as quickly as 13 hours and got worse. What I will never do again is listen to a crazy OB/GYN
who told me to rip a .50 patch off. Talk about crashing the brain. You'd think I was coming off crack or heroin.

Does anyone know what pg/ml levels you can get from oral estrace, 2 mg?
A doc is going to prescribe transdermal progesterone for me plus I have oral if I want that.
If I want to try estrogel, I'll have to use another doc since the one I saw has no experience with it and didn't want to prescribe it.
But since I did so horrible on the patch, I though maybe I would try estrace oral?

Jaguar

Floater, I am walking among the dead. I have been house bound and bed bound. I have vertigo nonstop (not rotational but the illusion of motion in the back of my brain and on the floor) If I get out to a grocery store, the crap hits the fan with pain shooting up my neck and back of head, and I get nausea like I'm going to throw up. I fight off blacking out a lot. Need to see a neurologist and a neuro-otologist. I'm going through hell. Been using Xanax and Klonopin daily. If not, I would have taken the car over a guard rail by now. Vertigo won't kill you, it will just make you wish you were dead. How you doing on the oral Prometrium? Any bad side effects? Do you use estrogel?

Jaguar