I was wondering, if women start BHRT, or HRT before they have gone 12 months period free, can they actually even tell if they are genuinely post meno? I ask this because it is something that confuses me to no end. If taking hormones, then hormoes are restored to more than a post state, therefore how can a woman ever be sure she is not going to get a period induced by the hormone intake?

Any of you have any clue about this?

I am tempted by BHRT, but am hoping to at least get the the 12 months done first. I may not make it, or I may make it and never want BHRT, but my options are open. Still, this question kind of plauges me, or intrigues me.

Viktoria

Viktoria,

You know me..............my mental AND emotional capacity for any type of reasoning WHATSOEVER has gone completely out the window and I am so dependent on everyone else for any sort of reasoning and stability.

So....would you do me a favor when you find your answer and please pass it on to me?

I really don't mean to interrupt your confusion with my confusion, honestly, I don't.

But, surely there has got to be one of us here who is able to piece all of this together...............or is there???

Hey there friend!

I asked my GYN about meno and HRT last week. She said that HRT does not necessarliy return one to a pre-meno or a peri-meno state, but it does, of course, add estrogen and progesterone to the system. So, a period is not at all uncommon on HRT. Last month I had a kind of spotting period. She said that this is the most common experience for a woman of my age who is on hormones. So, I theorized, hormone therapy is a kind of medication-induced continuation of menstruation, albeit lighter than some women may have experienced in the past.

Did I answer your question?

Marcy

I was first on Birth control pills when my Dr wanted me to switch to HRT. He said an 85 yo Woman would continue to have menses while on BCPs because BCPs stop normal production of hormones and replaces them with what's in the pill. So it's my understanding that HRT doesn't have enough on it's own to cause a bleeding but when mixed with what our bodies are producing it does or it can cause a period and even on HRT you aren't considered post till you have gone a full year. I think I made my year in February so I guess I'm post. I still feel just as mixed up if not more so.....

The hormone levels are not restored to normal levels on BHRT, they are still much lower. Many women don't build up any lining on the BHRT, and cycling off the P to shed any possible lining can be done every 3 or 6 or 9 months. Some women chose to cycle when they are post, but have to take fairly large doses of E in order for that to happen. Unless you are interested in something like the Wiley Protocol, which sounds like a nightmare from all I have read about it, you are still post menopausal on BHRT....you merely raise your hormone levels to the point where you are not debilitated from symptoms.

good question LV... i've always been confused by women taking any form of HRT before they are actually post anyway.. this just flabbergasts me... of course, i don't mean to start anything here, anyone not post and taking HRT please don't yell at me here, it's your choice just as it is mine to take nothing at all, and i've already been yelled at for that, so leave my choice alone as well please.... to me, a B/C pill before post, and HRT after is how it used to be... isn't that risky enough?

Not fussing but the reason being is.... Being Post actually means very little except for the waiting period required to 'declare' you are post. The symptoms during the waiting time are just as real and just as debilitating. One can't be on B/C and continue to have a menses, even a pill induced one and be post the next day. It's still a years wait. I know it's crazy but perimenopause can last up to 10 years... menopause is only one day. Post is every day after that.

But yes... it's all very risky and if your symptoms are such that you don't need the help then I say that's wonderful! You are one of the lucky ones. I'm happy for you and a mite envious too.

well... i had hoped to be post twice before now, waited 8 months each time, then had a few periods.. it's been 12 months this time, so i figure this is it for sure.. but would i know this for sure if i had still been taking a bc pill, or if i had been using some form of HRT? i stopped b/c pills 5 years ago now so i would know what was going on with my own hormones, or lack of them, before thinking on whether i might need any form of supplements..

yes i know only too well how long it takes too.. it's been 7 years since the first hot flashes started to plague me.. whether i have been lucky or not is debatable.

I started taking cyclical HRT within four months of my periods stopping coming regularly and starting to suffer symptoms. It restored my periods to once every 28 days - although there was one time when I had two in a month, despite the hormones in the HRT cycle working to a 28 day cycle.

As others have said, my understanding is that the BCP overrules a woman's natural cycle whereas HRT has a lower level of hormones and a woman's own hormones continue to fluctuate underneath.

I took HRT for two and a half years. Towards the end of that time I'd skip periods and they'd be lighter when they did arrive. Eventually I went for several months without one. I asked the doctor about this, puzzled, and she told me it was the menopause. So the hormone levels in HRT aren't high enough to produce periods if your natural hormones have declined significantly.

Someone I know who suffered a premature menopause at the age of 35 has taken cyclical HRT for fifteen years. A year ago she suddenly had a period, after 14 or so years of nothing. It occurred at the correct point in the HRT cycle for a period to occur. I don't know what her doctor's opinion was on it but as she hasn't had any medical treatment, I assume she had it investigated and that it was precisely that, a period. So possibly long term HRT can build up the uterine lining. She had never switched to continuous HRT where estrogen and progestogen are taken continuously throughout the month. I don't know if the cyclical nature of her HRT allowed her to shed the uterine lining therefore.

When you have stopped making enough estrogen/progesterone on your own to build up and then shed the uterine lining for 12 months in a row, you have officially reached menopause. When you take hormone replacement you are supplying your body with an outside source of estrogen/progesterone...your uterus really doesn't care whether the hormones came from an internal source or an external source, the estrogen will still have action on the uterine lining and cause a build up. This is why you also have to take progesterone to either promote a shedding of the lining, if used cyclical, or to stabilize the lining/prevent a build up, if used continously.

If you are post and using a very low dose of estrogen you may not have enough estrogen to stimulate a build up, but for most it is not unusual to have a monthly bleed if you are taking a sufficient dose of estrogen and using progesterone in a cyclical pattern. It does not mean you are no longer menopausal, it just means you have enough estrogen available to you to build up a lining. The periods are often lighter and usually shorter than your old periods but they are not abnormal, especially in the first few years following menopause. If you don't want monthly periods you can use the hormones continously. You can often avoid periods, even if you are not post yet, with continous use. If you don't stop the progesterone to let the level drop you won't trigger a bleed.

If you are not officially post when you start using hormones you aren't going to know for sure if you would have periods without external hormones or not. We probably place too much emphasis on knowing whether we are post or not...but I think it is only human nature to want to know. I stuck it out for my official 12 months + a couple extra months, because I wanted to know if I was "done yet" before starting hormones. I'm not sure the wait to know is worth the extra suffering but each person has to decide that for themself.

this has confused me to no end - peri-dense or not. i still don't understand how hrt is used prior to meno. if my hormones are on 'mr toad's wild ride' (term attributed to joanne mason), how can i possible tell how to correctly dose while fluctuating like that? i hear some people, experts included, say that blood work taken at different cycle points should give a good indication. but i've also heard it said that the fluctuations can be so severe that such snapshots in time can be meaningless. i had an estradiol reading off the high ends of the lab chart on day 4 of a cycle & below normal at ovulation.

am i just terribly confused? or just unfortunately afflicted? both?

nup.. i'm with you epdp2... i also wonder if doctors actually prescribe HRT for women who are not post yet, or whether they are medicating themselves? i can't help thinking they are just cultivating cancers every time i see them talking about it, not to mention confusing an already confused body.. i know i would not be risking it, there's way too much cancer on both sides of my family.. and i am unfortunate in that i tried an estrogen cream for dryness one time, and it just gave me a rash! ok, i know some people are really badly affected by their loss of hormones, so please don't take offence here or jump on me again, i am allowed to have an opinion.... (can you tell i have been scarred by previous encounters here? lol....)

I don't know about most people but for me the purpose isn't to 'replace' my hormones as much as it is to 'balance' them. Once they are balanced then the roller coaster ride evens out. I've yet to be able to do that so it's certainly not easy....

Actually, the B/C pill contains MORE hormones than the biomedical stuff. So yes, the B/C is supposedly risk(ier) especially if you have breast cancer in the family. I personally DO have breast cancer in the family and am PRE-MENO (still having periods) but I am taking a very low dose of estradiol (actually, THE lowest dosage available - .25mg) because of my HORRID debilitating symptoms. My doctor said that this ultra low dose gel (Divigel) is safer than taking the birth control pill, which contains very high levels of synthetic hormones.

LOL Bev, I don't think any of us really know the answer to this question. I sure don't no matter how much I look at it, although Docs I have asked have said that BHRT is equal to more than post level hormones.

So, I am still confused, and no one has convinced me differently. ............yet.

Hi Marcy,

I asked mine the same, and sort of got a similar answer, although this opinion differed as to whether it was BHRT or HRT [synthetic] Apparently the synthetic just blocks out any normal hormones. I do agree it is a medication induced continuum, but the question remains as to BHRT versus Synthetic HRT.

I am still confused, mind you, this is merely me questioning things for the sake of interest.

In the grande scheme of things, I doubt it matters

Viktoria

I tend to agree on this issue with synthetic HRT, but question it with BHRT. I hope you are post too, and things have to get better for all of us waiting.

No, they are not restored to normal levels, but they are certainly higher than normal "post" levels, and as they are Bio-Identical, which is always said to be the same as our own body makes [ or can make ] the level remains higher than true "post" meno. I am not talking periods, spotting, etc....I am talking biologically. And no one is post if they have even bled a spot before the 12 months. As for Wiley? Uh, no way!! Gross.

Ellen, I am totally with you. How can we know until we have passed that 12 months? At the same time, I also don't blame some women for wanting rid of the symptoms. I am trying for the 12 months without anything. And you are as confused as I am, and probably as much as science is.

I'm with you, Zen and also agree it's everyone's choice, but no one can balance fluctuating hormones. It's my choice to hopefully take nada.

Now don't all of you on hormoans start yelling at me, because you are supposed to be more balanced.

Lucky? Zen or I? I don't think so. I know Zen has suffered hard, and so have I. Just because we are not on hormones does not mean we have suffered less.

And my peri is going on 15 years now. I know about a 'tough' peri. I just don't talk a lot about it.

We women sure got a great deal, didn't we?

..........need a drink and think before more replies.

Indeed - hormones continue to decline for some years post menopause apparently - as evidenced by the women whose worst symptoms don't start until they're post. Post is just the point at which your hormone levels are too low to produce periods any more. This happens to people who are taking cyclical HRT as much as it does to women who are taking nothing - unless you take the kind of levels that are going to continue to produce periods, and few women do and few doctors would prescribe that level I suspect. Also hormone levels vary between women who are post. I'm not sure about the significance of the question. It's just a scale of diminishing hormones so far as I can see over several years and the last period is one point on that scale, but not the final point.

Ladies, I do apologize. Saying you were lucky was a poor choice of words. I doubt you would have come to this board had you not been suffering. I should have said you were stronger than me. I admit I have a low threshold for pain and I have a doctor that said my risk were low so my choice was made. I am sorry if it sounded (and it did) that your symptoms were less severe than others.

that's ok CarolH.. from my point of view anyway.. you don't know me, don't know what i am, or have been, going through since this madness started.. i don't talk much about other things, altho LV and I surely know how bad hot flushes can be!! i don't know how many times i have questioned my choice to go natural when some things really get me down... but i have come this far, and i think i can make it through some more... the risks outweigh the benefits for me, and i have read posts from women whose symptoms were not helped by HRT anyway...

Hi Ladies,
I am new on this board but I wanted to put in my two cents. I am 43 and the past 14 months have been a living hell for me. My husband had almost given up on me and my 4-year-old didn't understand why momma was always crying. I am still menstruating although it is irregular. I don't know how many more years this is going to last and I was not able to function, hold a job, take good care of my daughter, be a supportive wife, etc. due to the depression, physical symptoms, and extreme anxiety I have been going through.
I started BHRT only one month ago and it has made a world of difference already. My husband has noticed a big difference and I feel almost like my old self again. Most of the physical symptoms are going away or gone and my emotional state is much better, even happy again a lot of times. I am on the lowest dose of estrogens, DHEA and progesterone on a cycle so I will continue to get my period for however long my body can do it.
So although you may not understand why anyone would go on BHRT while in peri, my situation describes just that. I could not continue to watch my life crumble to pieces and not do everything I could to make it better (and I had tried many other things which did not work for me). I feel like I "lost" the last year of my life, even though I know that God used it to strengthen me and my family and will continue to use it for good. I am thankful that there are options out there for women to use (or not use) what is best for them and I'm very grateful for this board which has gotten me through some of my worst times in the last couple of months.
Susan

Sabutts, I am with you! although I didn't start the BHRT until I was 6 months without a period. But we each have to do what we feel is right for ourselves.

I completely respect and admire the women who have made it through this without the help of any hormone replacement, like zen and LV...and like CarolH, perhaps I was not strong enough...but I have to work to earn a living, and could NOT work in the state I was in. There ARE risks, no doubting that, and each of us has to weight the benefits versus the risks. In my case, there is no cancer, no heart attacks, no strokes in my family....at least not until extreme old age...so I was considered a good candidate.

I personally....again, this is merely MY opinion...don't think it is particularly healthy to have post menopausal hormone levels for too long....meaning the younger you reach menopause, the more benefits BHRT will give you over the long term. I also believe the sooner you start taking hormone replacement, they better it will be for you....I feel the shock your body goes through when your hormones drops off is NOT healthy....it may be "normal" and "natural", but to feel the way I did could not have been healthy. I was not healthy!!

We can all agree to disagree on this, or other subjects....this is a discussion board afterall...and we should all respect one another and each person's opinion, whether we share their views or not. I actually enjoy reading posts where the writer has a different opinion than I do, as I find it opens my mind to other possibilities.

Girls, I'm not going on with this thread because it was never about those taking BHRT versus those not taking BHRT, and I don't wish it to turn into that.

Hugs to all,

Viktoria