OK.....

This topic comes up time and time again as probably one of the worst irritants, coupled with the hot flashes on waking suddenly (which happens to me quite regularly)....

I want to know how many of us actually do not sleep well MOST nights?...with which reasons (hot flashes, heart racing, anxiety or just pure insomnia)

And I'd like to know who sleeps like a baby, despite other symptoms, most of the time.....and what you do in your lifestyle that you think helps?

I have gone through some small periods of time with better nights sleep, but right now I am feeling like the sleep fairy is avoiding me 'cause I smell bad or something! ....I hardly get a few hours of good sleep a night, or sometimes pure insomnia hits.

Caz

Caz, sorry to hear about your insomnia. I'm a good sleeper and always have been. Part of it is good 'sleep hygiene'. I go to bed at approximately the same time every night, try to do non-stressful things (usually reading, sometimes TV) for an hour or two before bed, keep the room dark, never have caffeine after noon, rarely drink alcohol...and hope my husband doesn't snore too much!

Of course I have occasional nights when I don't sleep well, but that's always due to specific stresses in my life;I'd say I get a good 7-8 hours about 90% of the time. I do find that I wake up more often during the night to use the bathroom than I used to, particularly if I've had (decaf) tea in the evening, but usually I go right back to sleep. I think there may be a genetic component to it as well - my father was a fabulous sleeper into his old age, and both my children (who are now 16 and 20) are terrific sleepers and were, even as babies. My daughter slept 12+ hours a night at the age of 3 months, and we never had bedtime battles with either her or her brother. They thought of bed as a great place to be...as do I!

Here's a website which might be of help: http://www.umm.edu/sleep/sleep_hyg.htm

Caz, I used to have terrible insomnia, and usually it was from hot flashes ...I couldn't get to sleep because of them, and if I finally did fall asleep I would wake up like every hour all night long...from hot flashes. It was terrible, I really think the lack of rest exacerbates all the other symptoms. I think I was so exhausted from lack of rest that everything else was overwhelming.

I sleep well now, because I have no more hot flashes thanks to BHRT ...and the prometrium works like a sedative for me, without any "next morning hang over"! I occasionally wake during the night, but I can almost always just get in a comfy position and it is off to the land of Nod I go!!

Life with adequate rest is definitely better than without.

Caz,

I also used to have terrible insomnia. Amazingly (NOT!), it started with the onset of peri. I would just lie in bed and toss and turn almost all night long. I think, for me, it was the anxiety that was causing it.

Now, even though I'm still in peri, I'm able to get to sleep quite easily and sleep through the night. However, if one of my kids comes into the room during the night for some reason or other (can't sleep or doesn't feel well), I wake up immediately, and I am WIDE AWAKE.....maybe that's just a "mom" thing, though!

dmar,

That is definitely a MOM thing!! OMG, I remember it well...but when the kids grow up, you can sleep better (except during menopause!!) It is amazing how quickly we learned the sound of our own baby's cry, and how it could jerk us into full awakefulness in a split second, no matter how hard we are sleeping!! I always thought that was such an amazing aspect of motherhood.

I do not sleep well - never have - and it is worse now in peri. I am a very light sleeper, for one thing, and any noise will wake me. I am also up several times a night to go to the bathroom, even though I restrict my fluid intake in the evenings.

Some nights I just lie awake and my heart feels racy - I know on these occasions that I am experiencing some anxiety. On those nights I am lucky to get 4 hours.
I do awaken frequently with night sweats also

So, to answer your question - I don't sleep well - and must be up every morning by 6 AM for my job. I do try to sleep in a little on the weekends to compensate - but that does not always work for me!

Di

Floater,

You're right, that is an amazing aspect of motherhood!

I remember when my kids were babies...it was such a tiring time, but there's nothing like it! Actually, my "babies" are 13, 15, and 18... I guess as long as they're living in the same house, I'll always be able to sense if they need me!

I have not slept well in quite some time. Only when I am on vacation. I am a caterer for private aircraft and have email notfication on my Blackberry. They sometimes send orders in the middle of the night for the next morning. This wakes me up as I am tuned in all the time. I do not have a 24 hour service but do start at 7 am. with a staff of 3. So I have to be aware of what may be needed early the next day.. Pots of money in this business but the trade off is becoming tiresome. Also in the past 3 months hot flashes are what really wake me up. If i take Ambian I wake up with sugar cravings. Odd. Ativan works well but I use it cautiously.
Louisa

I am not sure I would call it sleep like a baby, but it is curious as every suffers insomnia, I hit the pillow already in la, la land. But if I sleep later than usual, or don't get out of bed at the usual time, I often have a headache and feel even worse than usual all day. My sleep is often staight through, though there are times when I am up all night to the bathroom. I dream a lot!

I have doe nothing to be this way, and I feel just as bad all day like everyone else. My main sympotms are brain fog, lack of concentration, short term memory problems that also come with this groggy, fuzzy, drunk feeling. If I don't have that I hasve this weird kind of "head" fatigue...but I can think and concentrate...not sure if this helps at all, but at least you can know that a so called "good night's rest" does not mean symptomless............ Joan

Since starting bio's, at least in the area of sleep, for me it has improved greatly. I used to wake every 2-3 hours, have night sweats, anxiety and be restless through the night. I'd be up worrying about ridiculous things all through the night, sometimes I just wanted to cry because I'd be so scared of heaven knows what! I also noticed I didn't dream. Then I read somewhere not dreaming usually indicates not reaching a deep level of sleep. Now that I take E & P, my sleep was the first symptom to improve. Even my husband noticed I now sleep peacefully. If my sleep is disrupted it's usually during PMS and even then it's not like it used to be.

.... now if only the other symptoms would disappear as quickly & continuously, I'd be a happy camper!

Caz: I have what I consider to be severe insomnia. It's getting worse. Peri symptoms are dying down (I'm 12 months post), but the insomnia is very bad. I literally cannot sleep at all unless I take a sleeping pill. And sometimes even they don't work. I refuse to take pills every night (afraid of becoming addicted) so most nights I simply do not sleep. It's actually quite interesting...I thought I would fall apart, but I will go 2 days--a complete 48 hours--with absolutely no sleep. By the 3rd day I finally can sleep for about six hours.

I wonder...is this going to kill me? I think it's heriditary...my father has had insomnia all his life, and now my 20 year old daughter has told me she is having trouble sleeping..

I know all about good sleep hygiene...going to bed at the same time, darkened room, no caffeine after noon, or liquids after 7 pm. Even bought one of those fancy Swedish Tempurpedic mattresses, but it doesn't make a difference. I just lay there.

My doctor is baffled...he suggested that I go to one of those sleep clinics where they hook you up to wires and try to figure out what's going on. I'm not sure...

Robin....you should go to the sleep clinic!! That would be so interesting and you never know what you will learn! Maybe there is some reason for the insomnia???? Maybe, worth a try??

I generally sleep through the night. Before I started the BHRT I was beginning to get some night sweats. The progesterone and estradiol definitely help on the sleep.

Don't bother. I've had 2 sleep studies done recently at the Sleep Center at Yale. The first study, I didn't sleep a wink, just stayed up all night waiting for dawn. So they re-scheduled me a few weeks later. I didn't sleep at that one, either. The diagnosis? INSOMNIA!!!!! The cure? Ambien CR! WOW! You think these brilliant minds at an Ivy League Research University could have come up with something better than that!!!! It only took thousands of dollars a 2 nights out of my life, heck, I ALREADY KNEW I was an insomniac, and have been so since I was a teenager.

So Robin, let me tell you this. I have the same sleep patterns as you do. I've been sleeping like this for 54 years, and it hasn't killed me yet!! I know it will never get better, so it really doesn't bother me. I take Ambien maybe 4 nights a week, and spend the other 3 on the internet, watching movies, reading, cleaning out closets, re-arrainging my kitchen cabinets, and just quietly behaving myself so I don't wake anyone else up. The night can be hell to get through, but the dawn is always beautiful. You know, I think sleep is over-rated anyway!

Caz, I never had trouble sleeping until peri. I had nights where I never went to sleep during ten years of peri H*** I had really bad anxiety during peri and that triggered my insomnia. I am now post, 8 years, and am sleeping, for the most part, really well. I used sleeping aids during peri and as soon as I was post, I rarely used them. I had no trouble getting off the sleep aids. I have never been on HRT or BHRT. I found not sleeping to be debilitating and am doing so much better since I have been sleeping again.

CG

Thanks for all your input girls....

I have a friend visiting from UK and thought I wouldn't sleep well while she was here because of the anxiety of keeping her entertained and not be bored...however, I have slept much better the last 3 nights, even getting 6 straight hours of sleep, and lessened hot spells.

I have also added extra magnesium before bedtime...anyone else have success with this?

I thought I read somewhere on the topics that magnesium helps.....

Career girl - you make me feel somewhat better knowing it gets better after post, but you say 8 years....when exactly after post did it get better?

Caz

Robin,
I have soooo wondered about the heriditary factor of insomnia. I remember not sleeping in my early 20's but guess what? It was related to PMS (I think). Then had terrible postnatal depression and couldn't sleep. So besides being tired from just having a baby, I couldn't sleep even when the little one did. Here I am at 56. Some nights are way worse than others, but I too have learned that you CAN get by on less/none.

Robin and Armadillo,
I love Ambien but the problem is that I get rebound insomnia really bad from taking it. So, one night's good/awesome sleep creates three or four zero nights. Have either of you had this problem? I don't know - sometimes I think it would be worthwhile just to take it every night for those of us who have a "history" of poor sleep. It's that quality of life thing again.

Adair

Sleep has been such a problem these last 6 months for me too - no problem falling asleep but waking up at 2:30 or so and staying awake for 2 hours. Then finally falling asleep for a bit, having crazy dreams and waking up to get up at 6. Does anyone have any helpful hints for those 2 hours of wakefulness? Last night I tried listening to soothing music on my ipod, but still didn't fall asleep during it. It just doesn't seem right to get up at 3!

Lying there being anxious about all my menopausal symptoms doesn't help, that's for sure.

Donna

I have never slept deeply. One of the symptoms of being a military child...it was very common to fall asleep in one part of the country and wake up in another.

It was even worse when my son was born. I could hear anything and everything he did.

Over all, I now go through phases in both how much sleep I actually end up getting and how much I actually end up needing. Right now I am going to sleep between 11:00 and midnight, waking up around 4:00. I take a quick 20 minute snoozer at about 2:00 each afternoon.

When I can afford my favorite vitamins and herbs. I sleep better and don't require a nap. Go figure.

When I was working 50 - 60 hours a week in a high stress position. I literally woke up in a panic state every two hours. It would take me sometimes a half an hour to get back to sleep. I was exhausted. I could not take a nap.

I do best on about 7 - 8 hours of sleep...however I get it.

Caz, I started sleeping better at about two years post. All of my symptoms slowly receded.

I hope things get better for you soon. Sounds like the magnisium is working for you. My DH uses mag for insomnia and it really helps him a lot.

CG

caz,
i hope things balance out at a good place for you with this. prior to a few years ago, i never had a problem with insomnia - actually if anything i've had more of what slowbear describes. but i got walloped when it did hit. & i kept thinking - no problem, my body will settle back into it's own cycle. pure hell - tried everything natural, already had good sleep hygiene, etc. i was full on multiple days/nights awake. ativan eventually controlled it, & i have been coming off the original dosage. not happy about being on it, but i was a mess. now i notice the more prominent sleep disturbances at different times in my cycle. & it includes more frenetic dream states. it's definitely not so much the flashing waking me up. i started grinding my teeth at those times in my cycle as well.

good luck,
ellen

i had a time of insomnia, but it passed eventually... i used to just get up and read, or play a computer game.. find a chat somewhere maybe.. now i sleep fairly well for the most part, except for some nights here and there... i don't have the drenching night sweats anymore, just a light sweat from the hot flushes, and i think i am so used to that now, it doesn't wke me up any more, i throw off the doona, and pull it back on without really waking up.. i think i average around 6 hours most nights now.. ok, maybe not the 8 i was used to, but better than 3 or 4...

i think the insomnia lasted for maybe 6-8 months for me... i didn't take anything for it..

The last couple of weeks have been rocky, but I noticed Friday and Saturday I was able to get back to sleep after the 2:00 a.m. waking (hot flash/peeing) and I sometimes made it til 4:30. I am SURE that knowing I have to get up and be at work causes the anxiety to go through the roof during the week. I've never know either what to do at 2:30 in the morning! I just lay there sort of "hoping" I'll fall back to sleep. Right now it's only 8'ish here in New Mexico, but I'm beat from not sleeping last night.......
Hope everyone has a good night!
Adair

I didn't sleep for 3 weeks straight last year, I kid you not! Although my insomnia bouts are less in frequency, I still get them, especially with clusters of hot flashes <place "mean looking" emoticon here>

I don't know if this is relevant, but I have started taking my magnesium/calcium supps both before bedtime (I usually take one in a.m. and one p.m.) and for the past 5 nights I have slept MUCH better....averaging 5-6 hours straight then another 2 hrs dozing/light sleep....I"LL TAKE IT!

I have felt much better in the daytime and my drooping eyelids seemed to have improved already (and there was me planning an eyelid lift for my 50th in 2 years time!...hopefully if my sleep is restored my eyelids will improve!)

Caz

RoundRobin-- you just wrote my story of insomnia!! Thanks (bec I am too tired to type it) )

I was having a very bad time last fall. I have always been able to fall asleep at night (I think exercise helps this). But this past fall, I was waking up many times with sever anxiety and could not get back to sleep very well.

I have to say that since I have added magnesium, flaxseed oil and Estroven that I take at night, I sleep MUCH better. I may wake up but its later in the night and I can get back to sleep no problem. Don't know what is working, but I can't complain now.

Bestlife..

what ingredients are in the Estroven?

I am now taking a sublingual B12 supplement (20mg per day, which is a high dose, my alternative Dr. has given me) since last Friday...I'm still waiting for a miracle to happen!

Caz

Despite the fact that I have always exercised (that is until all of this mess came crashing down on me) , have always eaten healthy (that is until I started gaining weight no matter how much I exercised and how little i ate), I started having serious sleep issues and spent many, many sleepless nights walking the floor or laying awake the entire night long.

I spent a very long time just suffering through it, until I could do it no longer.

Now i take an otc sleep aid.

I am still only able to get 6 hours at the most. I believe it is restful sleep, although not enough and I spend most days dragging myself around.

If I try to nap, I might be able to fall asleep for a few minutes, but hardly ever more than that.

Most days I feel as though I would just love to lay down and never wake up.

Can I ask what quantity of these are you taking? I have tried taking my magnesium nearer to bedtime, but I don't see any difference after a week. I am not currently taking a calcium supplement, other than that contained in a multi-vit (which also contains magnesium - it's a multi especially formulated for menopause).

Tidal Waves...

I hear ya!......

Diane...

I am taking a total of 834mg daily = 84% of daily recommended value, which I realise probably isn't enough, so I think i am going to seek out another brand...I too take a multivitamin specially formulated for women, but it obviously doesn't cater for us insomniacs!

I am on a particularly bad week for sleep....even though I keep thinking I've found the magic cure!

Taking the magnesium/calcium supplements may have helped, but I have had problems and let downs at home (money, electrics all messed up so I can't cook and wash...even the computer and phone were out of use for a while!!!)...so they are taking a toll on me sleep wise....

As my husband put it to my daughter, who enquired as to why I don't sleep very well ( she's 7) - the other day....'Mummy doesn't have peace of mind'.....!!!!

Too bloody right I don't!...with a husband who doesn't love me and ME dealing with all the household problems that he just leaves it for me to sort out.....RANT, RANT!

I had to resort to a 'tylenol sinus' nightime pill last night to help me sleep, and all that did was made me drowsy with racing mixed up thoughts in my mind...so i guess i won't be taking any kind of sleep aids, as they make me feel worse!

This last week I have had between 3 and 5 hours a night, max....I am feeling dreadful and just want someone to knock me out for a few days to catch up!

Caz

I will join the "poor sleepers club".
I worked for thirty years on the evening (some call it swing) shift. I started my day at 2 pm and it ended whenever I got done with work...often at midnight or later. So, my sleep pattern was quite bizarre for many years. I would try to get a few hours of sleep, awake and get the kids off to school and then try to sleep a couple more hours. Fortunately, I only worked part time while raising the girls (both are now grown). Now, flash forward to the start of peri....I quit sleeping. Couldn't fall asleep, couldn't stay asleep. Did all the sleep hygiene things.

Went on ambien and take anywhere from a quarter to a half of a ten milligram tablet each night. Now I at least get four hours of sleep, wake to use the bathroom, then get another two hours...maybe. I often visit Power Surge in the middle of the night....I also do the laundry, unload the dishwasher and read until I fall back asleep.

To add to my menopause journey, I changed jobs last October and now work what I call "normal people hours". Yep, work 8 am to 4 pm. So, my sleep pattern took another dive. I had to adjust to going to bed early to get up early. After six months of day hours, I can say I am finally getting more used to the pattern and at least not laying awake most of the night.

I am hoping for sweet dreams for all of us.

janeann

I've been using lunesta every now and then and it definitely works for sleeping through the night (or if I wake up to use the bathroom - not unusual!) I can at least get right back to sleep. But I have a feeling that if I take it several days in a row (like even as few as 4) then I begin to feel jittery during the day. The jittery feeling increases into the evening. Has anyone else experienced this with lunesta or other sleep aids? It's not supposed to be "addictive" but I worry that this jittery, buzzy, anxious feeling may be due in part to the lunesta. Any thoughts? Thanks!
Donna

Prior to taking BHRT, I had terrible insomnia. At one point, I went 21 nights and didn't sleep unless I took a Lunista. Started on the bio-identicals...100 progesterone and .5 estradiol and I sleep like a dead person. Sometimes 10 hours!! I don't wake up and sleep deep night after night after night.

It took about two weeks for the hormone to kick in. Thank GOD they did because I was getting psychotic!

I was using BURT for 5 months, and it did nothing for my insomnia. Just goes to show how we are all different. Mary

I originally posted this topic....

I have had some increments of improvement, and I want to share with you all what has helped:

1. I take 20mg if sublingual B12

2. I take 'Herbal equilibrium' from womentowomen.com (all herbal ingredients, including black cohosh, kudzu, red clover, and others, see website).....this helped after 3 weeks, which is how long it takes to work - it helps with hot flashes, insomnia, mild mood swings and anxiety.

In the last 6 weeks or more I have been sleeping much more soundly, with little or no 'warm' spells, getting on average 7-8 hours sleep.

Hallelujah!!!!

Caz