Me again on this awful topic. I'm sorry.

I searched on the web this time for childhood abuse and depression and found a few articles that validated my thinking that if you're abused as a child (physically, emotionally (e.g., verbally or by love withheld) or sexually) it can come back later as depression.

I found that the impact of abuse actually reshapes the brain. It makes the areas that are the feel-good centers smaller.

As some of you know from my other post about abuse, I had a hard time in childhood. My mother hit me hard (shall i call it beating? What's the diff between hitting hard and beating?) with her hands. I also remember a belt and her assuring me that the belt will sing and I will have welts. I also remember my grandmother pleading with her to "not hit the child in the head!" -- what about the rest of me, gran? Jeeze, your daughter goes crazy on your little, only grandchild and all you can do is stand there and say "not the head"?

Honestly, I thought I'd gotten past this. I didn't ever dwell on it. Save for when I was a teenager thinking that one day I'll take the belt to the nursing home... But even that thought I put away, peacefully, even. I wasn't going to be a bad person. I was going to be a believer in love.

But the brain never forgets.

That was the physical.

I also got the emotional with always being yelled at for something or another. And then getting the silent treatment. I think perhaps this was happening because my mother was frustrated in her life, so she lashed out at mine.

One evening my father said something to my mother that he thought was funny. I don't remember what it was, a little dig at her probably. She said, "what?" so I repeated it. I thought it was a joke, I seem to recall. Well, he up and ran out of the house and my father told me to run after her. When I caught up to her she said he was going to the river to drown herself. I must have stood there on the dark street pleading for her to come home for an hour. My father was already in bed and sipping a cup of tea (that's how I'd left him).

Other times she'd always be telling me how she and my father were going to get a divorce. (They never did. It was some weird fantasy of hers to get attention, I suppose.)

Anyway, being a Catholic schoolgirl it was ingrained in me that divorce was a mortal since and you'd go straight to hell for it. That and for missing Sunday mass, which my parents always did owing to work schedules. So, I'd constantly worry about this and pray for them and pray for the souls in purgatory for good measure. God, was I raised stupid.

Then, no one was good enough to be my friend. There was a reason not to like any of my friends: I don't like her mother; her parents are divorced; she has a big nose...

And now, not only did I have a lot of emotional pain back then, but now it's all over me again with the curse of meno.

I'm not even sure where to go from here. I had one stupid shrink. Now I'm trying to find someone else. Hopefully one that will actually help me.

I have a wonderful husband and yet this love alone just can't save me.

I know none of you were or ever will ever be abusive. That's not why I spilled my guts. I simply needed to spill my guts. Wow, I thought at this age I'd be at peace and instead I'm nearly having a tantrum here.

Further, I just had a mailing from the American Menopause Foundation and the enclosed circular is all about the WHI study and hot flashes. Haven't they a clue, either?

There's a leaflet in there for a psychologist. Probably very expensive. Leaflet doesn't even list the "m" word. Sigh, shall I phone?

Thanks, guys.

Oh, gosh, guys. I was typing quickly and didn't re-read. I hope you can see where I was writing about my mother I typoed "he" I meant "she" I just didn't have the power in my finger to press the "s" key hard enough and then I just went and pressed "send" to get it out there.

Hmm, this is new. I added the "oh gosh guys" as a new message. So, I'm surprised to see it attached to the bottom of my original message. I didn't know you could correct your own posts. This is a test to that end to see where this message connects itself.

Oh Nev...having just read your post, I'm sitting here with tears streaming down my face, first because of what you've endured, and secondly for what an amazing woman you've become. Yes, I know you don't see that right now because your fragile...but believe me, you are one powerful woman!

You're right, no one, and I mean no one should ever have to go through what your childhood was like because parents should protect and nurture - so I have no explanation as to why they couldn't see what an incredible child they had.

But Nev, very few would ever write about an experience such as yours, so that tells me a lot about you. At a guess, I'd say, you've probably spent the greater part of your life doing good for others. Your eyes reflect more compassion, you run in where angels fear to tread because you're setting examples of how it should be done. And everyday you probably touch many.

Nev - I know you think you're somehow 'tarnished' but you're not....in fact, you're solid gold, and if push came to shove, I'd want you in my corner everytime!!

(((HUGS!!)))

Thank you, Tay, and (((hugs)))) to you, too. I can't say I've ever been unkind to someone to just lash out. But I have had my patience tried on purpose and then I get frosty.

Oddly, I did think I was an incredible child, just as you think I was. I felt that. I felt I was *good*. I was the friend, indeed. And I did things like collect $ on Halloween for "the missions". (Heh -- I also got into trouble one time for coming home late, because I was helping someone who'd fallen in the street. That lead to a smack down. I still remember what I was wearing.)

Now if only I could, please, borrow my good mind back for the rest of my life.

i am a firm believer that our body stores our experiences and that they can (and often do) some out in physical ways. Two books that are very illuminating in this regard (including abuse as a child) are: Secrets, Lies and Betrayals: How the Body Holds the Secrets of a Life and How to Unlock Them by Maggie Scarf (I actually had the EMDR therapy/technique she writes about and found it STUNNINGLY amazing!). The other books are by Dr. Sarno (John, I think) - his latest is "The Divided Mind" and his earlier is "The Mind Body Prescription". I HIGHLY recommend these to everyone includuing those of us who wonder if our body is in fact demonstrating the evidence of past "issues".

Nevermore, I am so sorry for the pain you expereinced as an innocent child. May you continue to find peace and healing. Be gently with yourself. kathleent

Thank you, kathleent. You're very kind.

Who'd have thought that release is so difficult -- even if you *aren't* trying to hold on to the past.

Thank you for the book recommendations.

(((hugs)))

N

Dear Nevermore,

We have much in common as I have walked many of the same paths as you.....neglect was my major abuse: physically and emotionally and as a result I have learned to run in a pack of one: me, myself and I.....the guy I married had as equally a neglectful childhood and we meshed in the oddest yet most complimentary of ways (there is a God). Now, almost 30 years later, he is my confidant and closet friend.

But all that aside, the pain does arise at the oddest times and has been accentuated by peri immensely as we can all attest to. But the reason I post today is in reponse to both of us witnessing our mothers attempting suicide .......my mother must have been my age now (48) or so and after a particularly vicious fight with my heroin addicted brother, she went completely over the edge. And as the rest of us hid in closets, she took to the street trying desperately to get hit by one of the many tractor trailer trucks that buzzed past our house every hour....and as she walked up and down the road in front of our house with different ones of us screaming at her to stop (I have 7 older siblings), she chanted: "I'm a bastard, am an ass----, am a son of a bitch..." in the pouring rain......that memory is seared in my mind for eternity and the sick lilt to her chant is almost like a mantra at times when I'm at my lowest.......

But it is said that adversity makes one stronger and today I can lay claim to the fact that I'm the strongest, surefooted one of my parents offspring and that's all I could ask for. My kids are healthier and their kids will be healthier and so on and so on.......I would be even more depressed if I had lived through my pain only to inflict a carbon copy back on my own kids..

I hope it helps to know you're not alone.........to the contrary, there were more of us walking around in pain than anyone would want to admit....

Hugs,
Momz

Hi Nevermore and others...

I truly believe that the body holds the bad things. I cannot get massages because I have flashbacks or become insane with rage and wanting to hit someone.

OMG, Momz....

Why are some people born into this crap? Why???

Bless you - you deserve happy years, lighthearted days ahead. You've done a good job with your own.

JJ

Poor silverhair! I understand that that happens. Body work very often results in flash backs. But I believe bodywork helps ultimately to work these things out of you. Likely you need something other than massages right now, or a different kind of massage.



Dear Momz, thank you for writing. i *just* saw your message. My mother was such a drama queen. I guess she's calmed down now. But calming her down then sure played a number on me.

I believe this sort of garbage did make us stronger. But I don't know why the heck we're nearly destroyed by it in peri.

I also wonder why this planetary change -- of breaking the cycle of violence -- happened now, and not a generation ago. Or why there was ever a cycle of violence. Maybe the peace and love message of the sixties had something to do with it?

Anyway, Momz ((((hugs))))) and peace and love to you. Let's hope we can get on with our real lives soon.

Never

Hi Nevermore,

I stumbled through your first post, so many of my own memories kept interrupting my reading. I know how you feel, Exactly. I guess this is as good a place as any to talk about this since this is the reason I found this site.

I Love to watch the Nanny shows, you know, Nanny 911 and Super Nanny. Yet when I do watch them I get profoundly sad because I see sometimes behaviours in the Mom on the shows that are very close to my Mom's treatment of me when I was little and growing up. I just Love it when Nanny Deb lays into a parent for treating a child badly. I think to myself Oh how I would have Loved to see someone like her around MY house when I needed it. no one Ever talked to my mother that way and God knows she needed it. am I making sense Nevermore??



And yes, here I am posting again but this is about something else. I think my childhood RUINED my life. I feel ruined.

Hi Wii, never saw the Nanny shows. But from what you say I bet they were written by people with not-so-nice childhood experiences.

Please don't feel ruined. You're not. But you do make sense.

I'm shocked by meno and the symptoms that I could only trace back to undue stresses. I never dwelled on this stuff, so I don't know why it came roaring out of seemingly nowhere now. I'm so tired of it!

Take care.

Dear Nevermore
It is with a heavy heart that I read this post of yours. You are a very bright, articulate, strong woman. I am sure that there are days that you do not think that this is the case, but I believe that you are all those things and more. I have read many of your posts, and it shows me the kind of woman that you are, be proud of YOU!!

I have not read all the previous posts, as I am at work and I find myself rapidly running out of time. I wanted to add this quick note to your original post, as it brought 'old tears' to my face.

(((Nevermore)))

Nevermore
I have just read your post and wanted to send you a hug. What you went through just shouldn't happen. It is wonderful to know that you want to put a stop to that cycle.

My mother was not physically abusive but I can identify with the feeling of having a mother who is not involved or connected and emotionally distant. My mother has taken two overdoses. Before the first one she wrote a short note to my father which I saw. I always felt under pressure to be happy for her as I knew she was so unhappy. I now realise through counselling how that affects us in later life. It is difficult but we need to accept that there is only a limited amount we can do for them.

You are right these memories are there and for the most part life moves on but occassionally we are reminded of them.

My grandmother died three weeks ago and my mother didn't even tell me that she had been in hospital or when the funeral was. It has brought back difficult memories. I need help in putting it in to some kind of perspective.

I have two beautiful daughters and they know that they mean so much to me. We have good times and bad together. I talk about their schoolwork, friends, new films, new music, we do 'stuff' together. If they stay with friends they ring me every day just to say hi. I know my mother has missed out.

Nev, I send you best wishes. stay strong

robin

Hi,

I, too, suffered through a childhood of terrible emotional and psychological abuse and I know my body has expressed the pain and anguish of all that many times. At the moment, I am writing my autobiography, upon the suggestion of my youngest daughter and I am suffering a lot of anxiety as I recall the bad times. My parents, like all narcississts who use and abuse their children, sometimes had a good side. In fact, the abuse from my Mother, specifically, went through a cycle much like spouse abuse does, complete with a honeymoon period. Both of my parents whipped and beat me but my Mother was the "Queen of Mean" psychologically. Both are still alive and they never changed. My little sister was abused in the same manner. Our other two siblings grew up to be narcississts like our parents and their children have suffered. I have psychiatric nursing experience which increased my understand of my own situation, but, the best help I had came from the 100s of books I have read about abuse of all kinds. I was very fortunate to have been mentored in a positive way by my aunts, my teachers, and a couple of neighbors. And, God has been gracious in my adult life to have sent wonderful friends, three great kids and now, grandchildren. I was unfortunate that my husband, also abused by his mother, has his own abusive streak, though he has never approached the level of abuse my parents carried out. Also, aging and cancer has given him a mellow personality most of the time and life is much better on that front. The difficult part is that our bodies do seem to have a mind of their own and the anxiety, panic attacks and stress might hit when we are most relaxed or when we think things are going well. I have had so many heart palps hit right out of the blue that I am going in for a complete exam tomorrow. I know the abandoned little girl inside of me will always feel scared and in pain but I comfort her by loving my own family and friends with everything I have. The other thing is to constantly put the past behind, knowing that these people cannot hurt you again without your permission.
Menopause, being a time of reflection, seems to magnify pain of all kinds. Just keep coming here to read. This board was my best help many and many a time.

Hello fellow survivors,

As I read back over this thread that I had posted in a while ago, it utterly amazes me that from such ugliness come such strength and conviction to do better than was done to us.....why I could not have been born into a family that leaned towards the healthier side of the fence is for God to know and me to find out. But until then I will traverse the gorge of pain and healing according to my peri hormones: there are days I smile in wonderment of what beauty I conjured out of the abuse and then there are the days I wish I never took a breathe.......

I dream of what could have been had I not been handed a oceanliner full from neglect and abuse but then look at my children who are college educated and successful and think, "This is what I was meant to do...it was my destiny...." When the full details of my story are shared with friends, they always come back with the same comment: "But you seem so normal and your kids are so great and happy..." and I explain I was the sacrificial generation: I was the one who had to turn around what happened bad in my family ( I have 7 siblings who are mired in lives of pain), and move on. And just like any survivor of any tragic circumstance, it comes with sacrifices... I am a solitary soul who, although friendly to the 9th degree to all I meet, I will not let you get too close for that takes trust and openedness and those are traits I tossed away long ago in exchange for the traits of survivng and analyzing........

TO BETHANY LEE: I too entertain the thought of putting my experiences to paper one day and I feel the time is getting closer....I will have to be strong though when it hits as the memories will no doubt shred my soul as they rise up from the place I buried them so long long ago........good luck to you as I too was spawned from a narcissist and they have claws that dig painfully deep into a person as you well know

peace to all
Momz

Hi Nev and others:
Just wanted to add that I, too suffered a very traumatic childhood. I don't want to dwell on the details but it was horrible; physical/emotional abuse, although we were never neglected physically; alcoholism; domestic violence; seriously attempted harm and seriously attempted suicides. The therapists that I have worked with have told me that it is one of the worst (if not THE worst) they'd seen. Sometimes, it breaks my heart to think about it....and my mom (my Dad is dead) is COMPLETELY in denial about ALL of it. I can't have anything to do with her, she's not healthy and she's not capable of reconciling all this...either I adopt her version of the truth, or no relationship.

I've managed to find some compassion for her because I now know that she was probably going through hormonal issues as well as Grave's Disease.

There's a story that was published in "Spirtuality and Health" magazine called, "The Elephant Never Forgets"; poignant read about abuse and how it doesn't leave the body unassisted.

However, there are some healing therapies out there. EMDR being one and EFT being another. On EMDR there is Francine Shapiro's book and Laurel Parnell wrote a GREAT book on transforming trauma through EMDR; there's a case vignette on one woman who had been through SEVERE abuse and found her way back.

Here's to hope for all of us..finding the courage to face all this and then, LET IT GO...At this time of the year, I think especially about transformation, resurrection...going through the darkness and coming out into the light.

Peace and love,
Avi

Hello friends,

I've been reading this thread, and my heart goes out to all of you. You are true survivors and have chosen to be productive adults despite all of the unfair things that you have endured. I am so sorry and I wish I could give all of you a big hug.

My mother has abused me, too, but it was worse when I became an adult and had a child of my own. I was never the daughter she wanted and that came through loud and clear. I ran away from all of the yelling and criticism at age 19 and married the only boyfriend I had ever had. I was pregnant and had my daughter. My marriage didn't last more than a few months. I was on my own and did not receive any child support from my very young ex-husband. Back then there were no laws in place for that anyway. So I went back home with the baby and worked full time and my parents helped me financially, which was my first mistake. However, the alternative would have been public aid and moving to another state to live in poverty. Yet I almost wish I had done that now, looking back.

The real devastation began when my daughter went to college. Until then, we'd had a good life and I loved being with her more than anyone. I spent all of my free time doing fun things with her and I read her a bedtime story every night. Since I worked full time in the city, the bedtime story and some time together was often the only chance I had, but I never missed one night of reading and talking with her, even if I was sick or had other problems. There were no phone call interruptions nor any other diversion during my time with her. She was the most important thing in my life.

My mother paid for my daughter's college tuition, and at the time I didn't think it was wise to interfere with that, since my daughter would otherwise have had to get student loans. Since my mother had the money, there was no point in interfering. Now I wish I had.

My mother began to forge a strong and secret relationship with my daughter that shut me out. I say "secret" because my mother didn't talk to me about her relationship with my daughter, and they began to do things together and spend time together and I didn't know about it since my daughter was not living at home. If I found out about a shopping trip or the fact that they had lunch or that my daughter spent a Saturday with my mother, I told myself it was nice that they had a good relationship.

Then my daughter started to think about law school and becoming an attorney. My mother again offered to pay the tuition for that. It was way out of my league, and my meager savings account as a single working parent couldn't hold a candle to that kind of money.

My mother grew increasingly distant with me, and nasty and ill-tempered if she was around me at all. I didn't know what was going on. My daughter never called and I never saw her. I tried going to see her, but often she was too busy. She and my mother selected a law school and my mother paid for my daughter's apartment rent, too. I don't know where she got all her money, but she and my father, who stayed in the background and was ineffectual, did not spend much money on themselves and lived a very frugal life. They had teachers' pensions and those are supposed to be generous.

After law school, my mother supported my daughter until she found a job with a law firm. Then my daughter announced that she was getting married to a boy she had dated while in law school.

My daughter's wedding was really a bizarre situation by then. I insisted on having a bridal shower for my daughter, but my mother also insisted on a shower, so we had two. My mother would not even speak to me by now, and you'd never know we were even related. Most of the people invited to my shower called and said they couldn't come. A couple of people grumbled about having to attend two bridal showers. Normal people would have given my daughter a shower together, my mother and I, and I'm sure the attendees wondered why we didn't. I was the mother of the bride, a place of high honor, but I was treated like an aunt or cousin. They did not arrange for my husband to have a tuxedo at the wedding. He had to wear his regular suit. My dad had a tuxedo and my ex-husband had one (her father). To this day, the insult still stings, and I wonder why such a small thing as a tuxedo had to be omitted and cause hurt feelings that can't be forgotten.

I was still in the ballpark, combatting all of them, monitoring everything, trying not to lose my grip. I insisted on being part of the wedding preparations as far as making the dresses. Both my mother and I can sew. My mother made the five bridesmaids' dresses and I made the two flower girl dresses. The dresses were a work of art for me, taking hours and hours to finish (I took two separate days off of work and countless weekend hours to sew all day), and I was so proud. The dresses had 12 handmade roses on them, organza, tulle, satin, zippers down the back, filmy, puffy sleeves. I've never made anything as difficult, not now nor ever before in my life.

A year later, my son-in-law had his own website and included wedding pictures. He gave credit to my mother for making the bridesmaids' dresses, and to someone in his family who had made my daughter's wedding dress. Even though there were pictures of the two little flower girls, there was not one single comment about the fact that I had made them. I asked him to include credit to me for having made the dresses. I asked him over and over, for an entire year, but he would not add the one sentence. He had lots of time to add more pictures of all their family vacations and all kinds of captions about that.

Why?? To this day, I do not understand why my contribution to the wedding was ignored.

I tried talking to my mother, my dad, and my ex-husband, to no avail. I wrote letters and went to see them, asking why I was being shut out more and more. My daughter would not even talk to me anymore. Now I know that it was a code of silence requested by my mother, since she had paid all that money and held it over my daughter, who had never paid any of it back. She had emotionally purchased my daughter. It was like breaking into Fort Knox. No one would communicate with me. I yelled and wept. I told them I wouldn't be treated like this, like I was an aunt or some distant relative. All I got was silence and closed doors.

My daughter had one child, then two. Now she is expecting her third. I have not seen my grandchildren. I've gone over there time and again, but they won't let me in and I'm afraid they might get a stalking order against me or do something else that would go on my record.

No one believes my story except my husband, who has been with me throughout. I have thought about writing to Dr. Phil.

I've seen counselors but I don't get much help. All I can do is go on with my own life, and thank heaven I have my husband. Otherwise, I don't know what I would do. If I buy into this sick mess, and start to believe that something is wrong with me, since all these people have shut me out, I know it will be defeat. I must stay strong, live my life, and believe I'm a good person who was a good mother to my daughter. I am so sorry that my grandkids will not know me.

My dream is that some day, when I'm very old, my adult grandkids will come to see me, and we will have one TERRIFIC time getting to know each other. That is my dream.

So Sorry, CSugar to hear about all of this..have you told your daughter how you feel? Does she know the reason for your reticence to have a relationship with your Mom? WOW, after all the abuse I suffered at my Mom's hands, I'd feel really betrayed if my daughter shut me out in this way..

CSugar
I have read your post and can't begin to know what to say. You are a brave woman.

Avi and momzoffour
Finding some way to carry on is difficult. Letting go of past hurts is not easy.

I am so moved by all of your posts.
I used to feel so guilty about what had happened but I try to focus on today, tomorrow and on the future.
robin

Sometimes, it breaks my heart to think about it....and my mom (my Dad is dead) is COMPLETELY in denial about ALL of it. I can't have anything to do with her, she's not healthy and she's not capable of reconciling all this...either I adopt her version of the truth, or no relationship.


You just described my mother (dad has been gone for 24 ys) and after raising 8 kids who all were subjects of her bizarre parenting skills, she's now 88 and her children do not care for her in the manner that an 88 year old woman should be: she hears from us all very little and yet she is held in high esteem by the "outsiders" (you who suffered like me know who they are) who think she is the next re-incarnation of Mother Teresa......I try hard to reach out to her but she honestly did very little for me as a mother other than the basic necessities and I'm afraid that she is now on the receiving end of that old adage"What goes around comes around".......how can you care for a woman who left you to be abused and neglected and tortured at the hands of older brothers and turn your back? I was a little girl and never did I feel safe in my own home......I'm sure she suffers some type of mental illness herself but acknowledging that and making the past better are not one in the same. Alas, there is a time to let go but the older I get the more I tend to see the holes in my personality were something mother-like should have been inserted.....she did none of that............none.....

I'm an anomaly (sp) in my own family as I sit on the other side of them all so different from them all and that was my saving grace.....

To aal who have walked this path, good luck with your journey....someday we will reach the end and find out WHY we were handed this script of life.......until then, love yourselves for we have all traversed mountains of pain and for that we should be proud.......

Peace and hugs,
Momz

Momz, you describe my feelings exactly. I don't know why it is, but in this country mothers are held in high esteem, and when we try to talk about the problems we had, and the fact that things will never be resolved, we get disapproval from people. I have years of miserable memories about my mother, and there is no way that those issues can be cleared up. There are too many of them, and too many times when my mother continued on her path, knowing I was crying myself to sleep and in danger of becoming seriously depressed, even suicidal. She did not care. She would be glad if I was no longer on the planet. It's a fact, and accepting it was one of the hardest things I had to do, but now I know a kind of peace that eluded me before, when I was still in denial about her.

My husband and I have talked about those elderly people we hear about on the news, and the newspeople say, "the poor people are lonely and their grown kids do not visit them." We glance at each other, and feel that maybe someone should ask the "grown kids" how things were. They might find out why no one visits them.

I agree with that last statement, CSugar - many times I've thought just that. If parents have a loving place in the hearts of their children, they will not be abandoned. What most children (even adult children) want is just some warmth, and acknowledgement. A parent who will listen in a spirit of goodwill.

Yesterday I did my "duty" call, and my mother launched into a long diatribe, in agreement with this doctor she likes to listen to on late-night radio. He apparently doesn't believe that menopause is a big deal, and said something on the show about how women in this country like to complain, that in other countries, women don't feel compelled to whine about it. As she was speaking, I wondered: why is she telling me this? I hadn't said a word to her about menopause; she brought it up. But then, she has known in the past that I've had struggles with anxiety and depression during this "easy" passage.

Of course, then she shifted into a discussion of her scoliosis, which is apparently very, very real.

Aye-yi-yi. I love her despite herself.

JJ

Since about an hour I'm searching this site about a problem: if sentive eyes can be a postmenopausal symptom? Did not find anything on it, yet! Somehow I found myself reading about Childhood abuse! Something happend when I was only 12years old through my own "parent". I went through counseling a long time ago. I feel so sad whenever I hear or read about somebody went through some terrible times in their lives. I would like to send you all many Hugs...

My husband and I have talked about those elderly people we hear about on the news, and the newspeople say, "the poor people are lonely and their grown kids do not visit them." We glance at each other, and feel that maybe someone should ask the "grown kids" how things were. They might find out why no one visits them.
[/quote]


CSugar,

I've had that conversation myself with my husband as we both have limited relationships with mothers who put themselves before us when we were growing up. Permanent, emotional connections are made in childhood that will carry us through our lives be it with parents or siblings or friends. I've determined that those of us who never made those connections are automatically detached from those very people as we get older. And although society looks at us in surprise, confusion even disgust, it's not something we do intentionally. It just is. You don't think for a minute I wouldn't love a mother or a sister who I could call and share my deepest secrets and fears and joys and dreams with? But it is never to be and there's a emptiness there that nothing will ever fill. Watching my own adult kids share their lives with each other comes close and as I said, if that was my job in life to raise my kids in a more loving trustful caring environment so the next generation is healthier, that has been accomplished.

But I still cry at what never was........don't we all deserve love and protection a children?

Hugs to my fellow survivors,
Momz

Dear Momz..It is very difficult to write about the times of abuse and I have increased anxiety because of calling up buried memories..Sometimes I have to stop writing for a day or two. However, in the end, I believe it will be a kind of cleansing but most of all it will be a witness to me of just how much I have overcome through God's help and the extraordinary physical health he gave me. Dysfunctional families like ours involving narcissistic parents put curses on their children and sometimes that curse has been passed through the family behavior for many generations. We need to understand the blessing we have given to our own children through the breaking of those destructive behavior patterns in our own lives.

I just found this thread today. I've had a horrific day today - mouth, lips, tongue so painful, and depression...I was interested to read women who were abused as children could suffer harder menopause. I believe this could be very true, tho I've never thought of it. My tale of woe? When I was a child, my parents fought. My father drank. My mother screamed. I remember saying rosaries on the stairs in the dark asking God to please not let them kill each other.

My elder brother was my saviour. He was my best friend. Having him made up for my fear of losing my parents. We had each other. When I turned about eleven, that all changed. Suddenly HE changed. Suddenly he wanted to play games that scared me...where we had to take our clothes off and he watched me. When I was twelve, he held me down in a tent in our back yard and raped me. He told me 'Didn't you ever wonder how babies were made?' I was horrified as I'd never been told anything about sex before that day. But that wasn't enough. He terrorized me for two more years before my mother, bless her, found something in his room that must've made her realize what he was doing.

But the worst of it all was, when I realized she knew; when I waited with relief for her to come and hold me and tell me how horrible it must've been to endure all that fear for so long; when I waited for my mother to stand by me - she stood over me, slapped me hard, and said: 'You little slut!'

That's when I learned not to trust. And since that day, every relationship I've ever had, even the wonderful man I've been married to for 24 years, I've expected betrayal. So much so, I nearly sabotage my own happiness.

Has this affected my menopause? My first symptom was anxiety, then depression. I worked with a counsellor for six long years. I couldn't understand why she kept coming back to the abuse. To me, it was over and done and I'd put it in the past. I'd even forgiven my brother, tho I never could quite forgive my mother. I lived halfway around the globe from them both. But these things don't go away. We try to learn to live with them. We try to learn to survive around them. We try to learn they are not what defines us. But it's a life-long lesson, and I'm afraid the lesson is never completely learned.

I feel for all of you who've dealt with abuse in your lifetime. It's one rough row to hoe, but it can make you strong and make you so much closer and careful to give full attention to your own children.

Mobi,

I just don't know what to say.

Compared to you, I had a fantastic childhood.

Bless your heart - may you have much, much happiness in the future, as you certainly deserve it.

(((HUGS)))

JJ

Yes, absolutely, every child does deserve that. I'm so sorry for all of you who didn't get that. I wasn't physically abused, but grew up with an alcoholic mother who slept around and cheated on my Dad with other married men, etc.... Thank God she has settled down, no man in her life (still the alcohol) but she's there for me now. Doesn't change my childhood, but has made me a better Mom (maybe someday my kids will know that?). Anyway, I pray that each of you can find healing through all of this. I wish I could be all of your Moms and just love you all up (I do love you all up). Thank God we've all learned from our experiences and have been better parents for it. God Bless you all!!
Faith

To all you ladies who are shaking your heads in agreement to my posts,

{{{{{{{{{HUGS HUGS HUGS}}}}}}}}}}


We should start our own cyber support group for each other!!!!!!

We walked places most people only read about and shake their heads sadly ):

We are survivors and from all the posts I've read, darn good ones at that!

Peace to you all,
Momz

I'm so glad this thread was started. As I've grown older - just turned 55 - I've realized we're all given trials in our lives, some seem more difficult than others, but in actuality, it depends on each person and their journey as to how difficult these things are to deal with. I've seen woman abused much, much worse than I ever was and they've simply stood up and walked on without a backward glance. Others have had smaller things happen that've left them scarred and broken. We all deal with things differently, so it's impossible to compare one trauma to another.

As for me, I've been blessed with a truly wonderful husband and two absolutely beautiful children. My daughter is 21 and such a good friend and comfort to me, and my son is 23 and smart, achieving and looks after me in his own way. Neither have ever given me a shred of trouble, and have always made me proud.

But, I don't know of anyone in this world who has it easy. I think we all just learn to deal with things in our own way. I love my mother, I just don't like her very much. I've come to understand she is who she is, and a lot of who she is was brought about by her own traumatic childhood. Unfortunately, that generation rarely talks about their problems, so I can't get any definite information from her. But in talking to aunts and uncles, I'm convinced my mother was abused as a child, too. My brother, well, I know he suffers everyday from knowing what he did - I know he's truly sorry, now. I don't wish anything bad on him, and hope he finds peace.

I really believe menopause, despite it's turmoil and upheavals, eventually brings us closure and understanding. I always wondered how old people can be so nonchalant about approaching death. I understand, now, it's a gradual acceptance of life's phases. I hope I can learn to accept whatever comes my way and see it for what it really is - a lesson that could make me a better person in the long-run.

Many, many blessings and hugs to you all!

Mobi,
This is a great thread as it has allowed some of us to vent in a manner that otherwise would not be possible. Yes, it's true ALL of is are given trials in life. But a good share of them don't involve your own birth fmily abusing you to the point of contemplating suicide. And that is were many of my pain lands.....I know the pain of your trial as I too had brothers who molested me ( I have 6) along with a brother in law. My brothers are drugged out, low achieving nothings and I have cut off most of my involvement wiht the sickest ones. But when you wrote how your mother blamed what your brother did one you, My God, I know the pain that inflicted as my mother, when a cousin finally told her my bil was molesting me responded "Well what does she expect, she doesn't wear a bra........" To this day, I don't know what she meant because I did wear one and even if I didn't, I was as skinny as a rail and barely anything to PUT in a bra. Thirty five years later, she still holds this man in high esteem (he's a very wealthy financial planner) and once I said to her disgusted I was with his behavior and I had finally told my sister what he did (they divorced long ago) she looked at me indignantly and asked "Why would you tell your sister that and hurt her feelings???" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There's my mother in a nutshell....I could go rot on a vine as long as I didn't make anyone else upset.it ,akes me wonder if love is even an emtion she has>>>>


Higs to all,
Momz

Momz,

That's so wrong... Your mom is clearly a very troubled woman.

You, too, deserve some real happiness in your later years. You got dealt a bad hand as a child - I feel for you.

(((HUGS)))

JJ

(((((((((((Hugs))))))))))) to each of you who have suffered so much I have a difficult Mom, dysfunctional family....but nothing like some of you have gone thru. My heart goes out to you, and I'm so glad you can find support here. It means so much to vent and talk about it. We can heal by doing this.

Love, Fin

Here's a hug to all of my sisters who have had to endure such pain. If only I had known you then, I would have been there for you, as I am now. You are right--it helps to talk, and we can come here to do that. I try to talk with people out there and usually they don't believe me, or they don't want to hear about it.

When it all gets overwhelming, and I just miss seeing my grandkids, I try to turn it around and imagine what it could be like if the other extreme was true. What if my daughter was continually dropping off my grandkids at my home? I work full time, and while I'd LOVE to take off days here and there to spend time with them, I don't have unlimited time off. What if I ran out of vacation time because I used it to take care of my grandkids? Maybe that would be the best way to use my time off, but what if my husband and I wanted to go somewhere, but I was out of time, and it was early in the year, so I wouldn't get any more time off for months? My retired husband could take care of them, and I'm sure at first he'd be overjoyed, but he is used to coming and going during the day, and I don't imagine he'd appreciate carting around two little girls after a while, especially since he would be responsible for their safety and their wellbeing. What if my daughter dropped off the grandkids and said one was sick, but she didn't have time to get to the doctor, and could we take care of it? So we'd have to go to the doctor, and so forth. Or they needed new shoes and clothes, and we were short of money? What if the elder grandchild didn't want to be at our home and wanted to be with her friends, while the smaller one was screaming and crying? What if she dropped them off on a Friday night and said she wouldn't pick them up until Monday because she was going out of town? We might have had plans to go somewhere, or tickets that we wanted to use for something, and we wouldn't be able to go.

Pretty soon I start to see how it could be on the other side of the coin, and I'm glad I'm not in that predicament, much as I love my grandkids.

We know the mistakes that were made with us, so we can go forth armed and prepared NOT to do the same things to our children. You all are very strong women because you are still here, despite what has happened.

((((Hugs to those of you who have been so terribly wronged)))) I feel a little ashamed of myself in light of what, sadly, so many have had to endure.

((((Char)))) You're rapidly turning into my favourite philosopher Queen.

Kind words...
Like drops of balm
On my aching soul.
Reminding me
In a sweet, quiet voice
That there is still hope.

Kind words....
Like a soothing breeze
On my tired face.
Wiping away
The sweat of effort
And the tears of grief.



Thank you for your kind words, Duch!!

Hello again everybody:
I think we SHOULD keep this thread going..sometimes I don't know HOW to deal with it and in fact, during my "quiet" time this morning (the time I reserve for prayer, Bible study/reading, inspirational reading, and contemplative/centering prayer), I was just honest with God about it. Our family's latest thing is that my mother (remember who is in complete denial about everything) wants to come and visit this month. One of my brothers (who's living on "de Nile" with my Mom) thinks she should just take her place in our family again without another word being said and that all of us should just "forgive". I had a question in my heart about this and some guilt..I am working on forgiveness, but the question for me is whether forgiveness entails a relationship... and read from William Barclay this morning (prepared a GREAT series of study guides to accompany the New Testament) who said that forgiveness is not offered without repentance and true repentance means confession and reparation where possible. And my sense is that my Mom doesn't even want AMNESTY, much less forgiveness and that she wants us to say nothing happened and/or if it did that we, as children, were responsible.
Right now in my life, one of the things that I bear is in taking care of my younger brother who my Mom horrifically abused..he is so sick and depressed and hurting....but so sweet and so precious. I resent the HELL out of her for having to clean up HER mess. HOW can she look on and claim nothing happened when this exists?!!! I truly don't know what to do, but my mantra (loved your Aachan Cha quote, Mobi) is "Let Go, Let God".
My heart aches for all of you..ALL of you..and I honor that you just..keep walking.
Love,
Avi

Aviano, I'm sorry to hear about this. I'm in a similar predicament where my elderly parents want me to "make amends" with them about a mess they created and actively maintained for 35 years, despite every attempt on my part to stop them and explain to them the havoc they were causing, not only for me but for several other people whose lives have also been altered forever. I've heard that saying, "...to forgive is divine," and while I've made plenty of mistakes in my life and I'm sure I need to improve and be forgiven for those, I did not want the awful situation my parents have fostered, and I have suffered with the consequences of their stubborn perseverance. They stayed the course regardless of hurting me, and I know now that they are mentally ill, but it's that kind of illness that allows people to function in society and appear normal; other people even like them, they are popular at parties, they do random good deeds, they are master manipulators and liars, and no one would ever believe that these same people could have done such a lot of damage to their own daughter. But I know better, although I have had a hard time even connecting with the people whose lives were altered, let alone try to talk about this with anyone else. They think I'm making it up.

I've done some soul searching about the concept of forgiveness, and it is my position that I have done nothing wrong in this instance; in fact, I've spent the 35 years figuratively banging on their door and pleading with them to stop. I do not wish to forgive my parents and make amends so that they can "die in peace," as they said. I have the exact same situation as you do with your sweet brother, as far as "cleaning up their mess," since I'll be busy cleaning up the extensive mess my parents created, for many years. I'm sorry I cannot do their bidding now, but in no way do I wish to forgive them; in fact, holding on to my angry feelings (since, for years, I was in denial) gives my feelings credibility and is oddly comforting, in light of my parents' assertion that they did "nothing wrong" and they "just can't understand" why I'm so angry at them!!

Gayle-
I do not think that it is ever too late to make friends, and you sound as if you have a lot to offer. I am truly sorry to hear of all that you have endured, but I am glad that your life has taken a happier turn. You certainly deserve to have friends, and you never know where you might find them...
when I was in my 20's, and living with the man who would soon be my husband, I was going through a very rough time....my soon-to -be husband was a raging drunk, and was usually hung over every weekend,after being out to all hours.... ( as to why I married him, that is another story)
BUT, an older neighbor ( at the time she was about 60) took me under her wing, and started taking me to yard sales on weekends, antique shows, taught me the business....and became a dear friend.....she had had a tough life as well...
I still hear from her, she is now 91!! I am glad that I was open to having a friend of a different age....
If you pursue an interest, you may well find a friend.....
wishing you all the best.....

This is so beautiful! We have to remember that we have this to offer to young women, our own experience and understanding. What a rich friendship - thanks for sharing this!

JJ

Dear Gayle,

You practically wrote my story verbatim: if you go back thorugh this thread I expalined some of the circumstances I found myself on as a child in a emotionally loveless non-communicative family which, although the counselors, therapists etc won't tell you out right, pretty much screws your outlook and interactions with others for the rest of your life.....

I had no one to count on so it was me, myself and I and to this day, I feel like it still is. Girlfriends? I chased away anyone who remotely tried to get close to me and eventually, they give up. I'm "happiest" (?) when I'm alone but realize in the end, that's a very sad way to live. Aren't loners considered outcasts and oddballs in our culture?

Trust? HA!!!! I didn't trust my own husband for 20 years (been together for 29) and only recent;y began trusting others... who can truest when your childhood was based on abuse and no one ever stepping up to the plate for you?

All in all I understand your feelings soooooooo completely for you and I walked the same walk......this thread has been an eye openers but also a validation that what somwe of us went through was so so wrong..but here we are, stronger for it and making the turn towards the light of tomorrow for our kids

peace to you,
Momz

And as I re-read my post, realize my mind was running faster than my fingers and I should not carry on conversations with people in the room while trying to type! But your story was soooooo similar to mine that I was very anxious to respond before your post was shuffled around...

Again, I hope it brings a smile, albiet a sad one, to your face knowing there are others out here who feel the same way you do......it does for me and I don't feel so alone all the time

Friends? Yes my peri ones in here....

Peace,
Momz

I honestly don't know how relevant this is to your case, and I wouldn't try to guess whether life issues are causing you to have depression at this time. But the first thing that came to my mind is if you are having trouble with depression, that your mother may have had a mood disorder, and also, is there any chance that she was going through menopause during part of this time.

This is what happened to me. Mood and anxiety disorders have a very strong genetic component. These things can be quite subtle - especially "nervous depression". My therapist was the first to realize there might be a family history.

If issues from other stages of your life are causing you to have mental health problems, there should be some cause and effect between those issues and the way you feel. Have you been upset about them lately? Is something reminding you of them? Sometimes a causal relationship is indirect - are you having trouble with particular stressful situations, or relationship issues? It took years in therapy for me to learn how ways of thinking I learned from my parents were sabotaging me. If none of that is true, then any causal relationship between your childhood problems and your menopause issues may be a genetic one. Also, depression can create a tendency to brood or have sad thoughts about whatever you can come up with, and it can be too subtle an effect for you to realize that the mood came before the thoughts.

Yours,
Dora

Gayle:

I am poor at relationships, but have always liked being alone, which is a valuable skill to learn. Also, partly because I never really learned to value close relationships, I'm rather good at getting support from people I have more distant relationships with. Not especially hugs, but information, which is usually most of what I'm looking for.

Actually, I really like the focus on information and instrumental replies on this list. The other menopause lists I'm on are about hugs and complaints, and it is not possible to shake loose information. I typically don't get along well on lists of that nature.

But I have grown better at getting along with people over time, and it is never too late to make changes. Slow and gradual changes are not a bad thing. Or you could try the faster strategy my first cousin suggested, which is to just start being warmer with people. Of course, this presupposes knowing when and how to be warmer with people, which is not me. And the specific advice was to just start hugging people, which is something I'll never feel comfortable with.

I've learned alot by trial and error, and by paying attention to bits of information.

Is there any chance that this forum is selectively composed of women who did NOT learn all about menopause from our mothers? Because noone was ever able to shake out of my mother even when she went through menopause, which I'd dearly like to know. Next year? Five years from now?

Yours,
Dora